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Thread: St Georges day parade

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    They do. It is stable. Easter is always the third Sunday in the paschal lunar month. It's totally stable in the lunar calendar. I don't know what your problem is.

    Or if you want to bring your heathen Gregorian calendar into it...the paschal lunar month, or Easter-month is the first one in the year to have its fourteenth day (its formal full moon) on or after 21 March. Easter is the Sunday after its 14th day (or, saying the same thing, the Sunday within its third week).

    If you want the full gore...and it's amazing...wikipedia comes up trumps...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus

    Cold comfort, at least it looks like it won't clash with a weekend St. Georges thing again until 2025, then 2030.
    If all the Easter egg manufacturers could say in advance on what day they will be discounting their eggs - that would be a good indicator of when Easter was.

    Looking into the St George's day thing... Can't help but notice in the TSA fact sheet (https://members.scouts.org.uk/factsheets/FS295414.pdf) it says:

    So, the Sunday nearest to St. George's Day has
    become an annual occasion for United Kingdom
    Scouts to hold ceremonies when they reaffirm their
    Promise and acknowledge the Scout Law in a
    national act of dedication.
    (quoted with strange formatting...)

    Bit of an assumption there, UK scouts don't hold ceremonies - English Scouts do, or mostly do.

    I was going to ask why you do SGD parades, but I guess it's more because St George is England's patron saint (which might be one of the reasons BP chose him as Scouting's patron saint) than him being Scout's patron saint...

    I wondered if Scouts any where else did SGD parades off the back if him being Scout's patron saint...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    My District runs a "standard" SGD parade through the town to a large church. It is very poplular with all the Groups represented and hundreds of kids. We don't put any 3-line whips on them to come and we usually get over 60% turnout.

    This year will be a bit lower I would think due to the Easter holidays but that's just the luck of the draw. We have considered "other things" but no one has managed to come up with anything that has quite the same sense of occasion.

    We could do a camp but we can do those any time of the year.

    Its been suggested we shouldn't do the church bit but there is nowhere within a sensible distance that could cope with our numbers. There are some schools but they are not in the town centre and the roads to get to them couldn't be closed off so that would kill off the parade element. Anyway who wants to go to school for an extra day?

    Realistically it is the only chance we get for a "Grand Parade" so it we dropped it for something else then the YPs would lose the chance of the experience. As the numbers are always good then it must be popular.

    Long may it continue
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Parade, there is nothing wrong with a Church Service. What is wrong is when people are co-erced/bullied/bribed etc into attending.

    Some people like an amble down the high street with the flags and if you are lucky a band but it is not for everybody.
    Some people like a Church Service and if you are lucky it will be a good one, but it is not for everybody.

    It MAY work for a few more people if the Church (if you need to use one) was used as a venue only and the 'service' was not religious so don't use the Vicar and have 'prayers' and keep referring to God and Jesus etc.

    Those that want this will enjoy the rest should not be 'forced'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    If all the Easter egg manufacturers could say in advance on what day they will be discounting their eggs - that would be a good indicator of when Easter was.

    Looking into the St George's day thing... Can't help but notice in the TSA fact sheet (https://members.scouts.org.uk/factsheets/FS295414.pdf) it says:

    So, the Sunday nearest to St. George's Day has
    become an annual occasion for United Kingdom
    Scouts to hold ceremonies when they reaffirm their
    Promise and acknowledge the Scout Law in a
    national act of dedication.
    (quoted with strange formatting...)

    Bit of an assumption there, UK scouts don't hold ceremonies - English Scouts do, or mostly do.

    I was going to ask why you do SGD parades, but I guess it's more because St George is England's patron saint (which might be one of the reasons BP chose him as Scouting's patron saint) than him being Scout's patron saint...

    I wondered if Scouts any where else did SGD parades off the back if him being Scout's patron saint...

    Ah, you would have to go and open that can of worms...

    Yes, Scouts all over the world do celebrate SGD because A/ He may be their Country's patron saint, but see also B/ Baden Powell once wrote that a Scout should be couragious, that in his life he should emulate St George, that St. George should be the Patron Saint of all Scouts. I am aware of people in Malaysia who celebrate SGD in Scouts. I'm sure most German Pfadi do as many of them are St. George Pfadfinder and fly the George Cross - very confusing to some English scouts, I can assure you.

    wikipedia is your friend on this... check out Coat of arms of Aragon - enough to give Tommy Robinson and the EDL the screaming heebie jeebies...
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Ah, you would have to go and open that can of worms...

    Yes, Scouts all over the world do celebrate SGD because A/ He may be their Country's patron saint, but see also B/ Baden Powell once wrote that a Scout should be couragious, that in his life he should emulate St George, that St. George should be the Patron Saint of all Scouts. I am aware of people in Malaysia who celebrate SGD in Scouts. I'm sure most German Pfadi do as many of them are St. George Pfadfinder and fly the George Cross - very confusing to some English scouts, I can assure you.

    wikipedia is your friend on this... check out Coat of arms of Aragon - enough to give Tommy Robinson and the EDL the screaming heebie jeebies...
    Oh dear...

    I didn't know it was a can of worms, I just hadn't heard of anyone else doing it, say, in Canada or I don't know, Ecuador...

    I'll rephrase the question a wee bit (I genuinely don't know the answer). Are these parades mainly 'scout' parades (so done because of what BP said about St George and the dragon), or are they more to do with St George being the patron saint of England and it being an English national identity thing?

    Scouts in other countries attend national days. It's so difficult to disentangle some of the things we do from nationalism, which in turn (I think unfairly) gets tarred with the same brush as the outer edges of nationalism.

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    Our SGD parade is called a Renewal of Promise celebration. Our kids come because it's cool that the police close off the main street through the centre of Exeter for us. Patron saint - what's that?
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I'll rephrase the question a wee bit (I genuinely don't know the answer). Are these parades mainly 'scout' parades (so done because of what BP said about St George and the dragon), or are they more to do with St George being the patron saint of England and it being an English national identity thing?
    Not sure because we don't parade, but as part of family camp, we have a renewal of promises service, sometimes, usually even, St. George is talked about, always in the context of being the patron saint of scouting, it's definitely not a celebration of England or anything. Though, right enough, I can see why it doesn't get much traction the one side of various borders.

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Scouts in other countries attend national days. It's so difficult to disentangle some of the things we do from nationalism, which in turn (I think unfairly) gets tarred with the same brush as the outer edges of nationalism.
    I wonder what Georgian Scouts do? Probably simplifies the whole thing when your country is named after St. George.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Our district used to do a St Georges Day parade and in recent years have tried various fun days with what really has been a token renewal of promise section during the lunch break.

    I liked the St George's day parades, but I also liked attending the fun days, and I think the trick is to find the right balance between something traditional and something that our young people are going to want to get involved with.

    Unfortunately there's no district fun day this year for St Georges day, but they're offering a bell boating event on another weekend and the county in recent years have combined the AGM with a fun day which has gone down well.

    The main problem the district had with St Georges day parades was that the local council / police didn't want to continue to provide the event cover, mainly to provide rolling road closures during the parade. The route was made shorter, and then we started avoiding large sections of the roads. It also didn't help that the council liked to put on a duathlon festival on the same weekend.

    I don't agree with Ben's tactic of spending 100 on a cub nights away and a participation badge for those that attended - that's excluding the opportunity of a nights away for those that couldn't attend St George's day for whatever reason (holidays, illness, football match, etc.) and is totally unfair and rather extravagant as a reward. It's not about who has the largest representation at St Georges day, and its certainly not about having an ego trip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Not sure because we don't parade, but as part of family camp, we have a renewal of promises service, sometimes, usually even, St. George is talked about, always in the context of being the patron saint of scouting, it's definitely not a celebration of England or anything. Though, right enough, I can see why it doesn't get much traction the one side of various borders.



    I wonder what Georgian Scouts do? Probably simplifies the whole thing when your country is named after St. George.
    I'm trying to figure out how to ask what I mean to ask... We don't have St Andrew's Day parades - we have dinners I suppose... Usually involving a lot of booze, so they're probably not something Scouts (any kids generally) would go to... I suppose what I mean, is, in England how integral to the St George's day parade are Scouts? Is it just a civic thing some towns and villages do that Scouts attend - in the same way, say, the British Legion membership might attend?

    We just don't have anything like it we do up here. Even promise renewals are problematic, I now have kids asking me if I'm a monarchist, and why do they need to promise to do their best to the Queen...

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    I think you're thinking it's more than it is. In most places (where the traditional parade still happens), it's literally just the scouts (although they may hire a marching band to lead the parade) "marching" through a town centre, usually to a church for a service. As a rule there aren't any St George's Day parades which don't involve scouts.
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Oh dear...

    I didn't know it was a can of worms, I just hadn't heard of anyone else doing it, say, in Canada or I don't know, Ecuador...

    I'll rephrase the question a wee bit (I genuinely don't know the answer). Are these parades mainly 'scout' parades (so done because of what BP said about St George and the dragon), or are they more to do with St George being the patron saint of England and it being an English national identity thing?

    Scouts in other countries attend national days. It's so difficult to disentangle some of the things we do from nationalism, which in turn (I think unfairly) gets tarred with the same brush as the outer edges of nationalism.

    I had to google to get an answer, But yes, apparently there are SGD parades that are not Scout related.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    I think you're thinking it's more than it is. In most places (where the traditional parade still happens), it's literally just the scouts (although they may hire a marching band to lead the parade) "marching" through a town centre, usually to a church for a service. As a rule there aren't any St George's Day parades which don't involve scouts.
    That's kind of what I'm trying to find out. Similar to the what-came-first question, the chicken or the egg - what came first, the SGD march, or Scouts doing the SGD march. What kicked it off, is what I meant?

    Perhaps I'm asking the wrong question - is it districts who are in the driving seat with the marches? I know St George is the patron saint of some other countries, I just wondered if the main reason you do them down south is because it's England's patron saint, because that he's also the Scout's patron saint - means hee haw in Scotland and I suspect most of the rest of the globe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    I think you're thinking it's more than it is. In most places (where the traditional parade still happens), it's literally just the scouts (although they may hire a marching band to lead the parade) "marching" through a town centre, usually to a church for a service. As a rule there aren't any St George's Day parades which don't involve scouts.
    If you google St George's Day Parades you will find that there are wider SGD parades... And some of them, I suspect that Scouts would not wish to be associated with... Others are planned to be more inclusive. But, I suspect that the Scout event is more widespread than any of the others.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 16-04-2019 at 10:59 AM.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That's kind of what I'm trying to find out. Similar to the what-came-first question, the chicken or the egg - what came first, the SGD march, or Scouts doing the SGD march. What kicked it off, is what I meant?

    Perhaps I'm asking the wrong question - is it districts who are in the driving seat with the marches? I know St George is the patron saint of some other countries, I just wondered if the main reason you do them down south is because it's England's patron saint, because that he's also the Scout's patron saint - means hee haw in Scotland and I suspect most of the rest of the globe.
    If you posted that on 1st FB you would get shot down in flames from those Scottish groups who do a SGD Parade as a Scout event. I'd elaborate by summarising past discussions but you can almost guess how it went.

    I have been verbally attacked in the past for suggesting that St. George was not recognsed as the patron saint of Scouts in every country.

    When I did some research into local Scouting, there were groups that did "scouting" linked to local churches and prior to becoming Scouts they followed a St George's Day tradition of a parade.

    However, according to wikipedia..."St George's Day was a major feast and national holiday in England on a par with Christmas from the early 15th century.[14] The tradition of celebration St George's day had waned by the end of the 18th century after the union of England and Scotland.[15] Nevertheless, the link with St. George continues today, for example Salisbury holds an annual St. George's Day pageant, the origins of which are believed to go back to the 13th century.[10] In recent years the popularity of St. George's Day appears to be increasing gradually."

    So, those ruddy Scots were to blame for the demise of the traditional St. George's day. Ha! The Union sublimated English culture as well as Scots'!
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    If you google St George's Day Parades you will find that there are wider SGD parades... And some of them, I suspect that Scouts would not wish to be associated with... Others are panned to be more inclusive. But, I suspect that the Scout event is more widespread than any of the others.
    I know there have been attempts in recent years to make more of a "thing" of St George's Day, including parades/fetes etc but I still think these are the exception rather than the rule - and yes some not quite as... wholesome as others.
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That's kind of what I'm trying to find out. Similar to the what-came-first question, the chicken or the egg - what came first, the SGD march, or Scouts doing the SGD march. What kicked it off, is what I meant?
    Well, here's my theory. The explanation given for a lot of what Scouts do was invented after the fact. The left handshake is to show trust and comes from BP seeing it used in Africa - tosh! The left hand shake was invented because BP started Scouts for Edwardian boys, and Edwardian boys were brought up on adventure stories involving secret handshakes and the like, so he threw a special handshake into Scouts to press as many buttons as possible and then had to think of a rational for it. The Scout badge, the first one, has two stars with 10 points to reflect the 10 Scout laws - tosh! BP copied the Scout badge from a N arrow on an old map then tried to think of something symbolic to assign to everything in it. I sometimes wonder what the 11th Scout law was, that BP had to drop because he couldn't fit it into the symbolism.

    Why SGD Parade? Because BP wanted Scouts to be seen, and to be seen as something special. What better than a parade behind a band, closing the street and saluting the Mayor? When to do it? Sometime in April would be good, the weather's not too bad, and there's better things to do in the summer. Easter wouldn't work. What else happens in April that we could adopt as an excuse, if we hadn't yet realised that this thing is going to go global?

    Is my theory.
    John Russell
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