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Thread: Ratios: POR v Scouting Magazine

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    Ratios: POR v Scouting Magazine

    Extract from the latest Scouting Magazine:

    What are the recommened ratios for events away from the usual meeting place?

    You've planned a great programme, done your risk assessments, told your Group Scout Leader (who's informally kept the District Commissioner advised that you'll be away from the usual meeting place), and told parents to drop youngsters off at tonight's location. All great - but what about ratios? We need to have enough adults with us to ensure a safe environment for all the great activities planned, remembering that we're in a place that we're not familar with. As a reminder, if we're taking Beaver Scouts away, our ratio is one adult to every six Beaver plus the leader in charge. With Cubs, one adult to eight Cubs plus the leader in charge is sufficient, and for Scouts it's one adult to twelve Scouts plus the leader in charge. Remember, too, that Explorer Scout Young Leaders count as young people and not as adults when working out your ratio.
    Your risk assessment may suggest you need more adults, depending on what your activity is, and if you're staying overnight you need a minimum of two adults. With good planning, and by involving parents, Section Assistants and others from the district, you can have great, safe and fun events regularly at locations away from your your normal meeting place.
    Enjoy!
    Graeme Hamilton
    UK Commissioner for Programme Delivery

    * Away from the usual meeting place
    Since when have we all needed to notify the DC if we'll away from the usual meeting place?
    This may be a procedure implemented by some DCs per POR 9.1b, but is certainly not a national requirement.

    * Scout section ratios
    For some reason many people struggle to understand the required/recommended adult to child ratios. Getting them wrong in an article like this simply adds to the confusion. There is no requirement for a "plus one" with the Scout section.

    * Explorer Scout Young Leaders
    The phrase "Explorer Scout Young Leaders count as young people" could lead people to believe that YLs should be included withth the 'child' part of the adult:child ratios when this is not the case. YLs play no part in calculating the ratios required by POR, but they may play a big part in the event risk assessment.
    POR 4.7k is clear on ratios for Explorer Scouts: There is no recommended minimum ratio for outdoor activities held away from the usual meeting place or ...

    Hopefully there will be a correction in the next edition, but in the meantime the article adds to the confusion.



    Paul
    Last edited by PaulArthurs; 15-04-2019 at 10:20 AM.

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    Why arenít there people proof reading these things for accuracy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by claire.shadbolt View Post
    Why arenít there people proof reading these things for accuracy.
    FWIW I bet Graeme didn't write that and may not even have read it. It's quite common in this sort of context for junior staffers to write this kind of thing and just put the senior member of staff's name on it.

    OTOH, this is yet another example of poor proof reading in TSA publications. They really do need to get this sorted.

    I would encourage everyone to email in and ask them to publish a correction.

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    It might also help if the rules were just easier to follow.

    Sure I've said elsewhere, if they tidied them up a bit, maybe the people who actually wrote them could understand them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    It might also help if the rules were just easier to follow.

    Sure I've said elsewhere, if they tidied them up a bit, maybe the people who actually wrote them could understand them...
    Be careful what you wish for. Putting a +1 on the Scout ratio would be a very easy way to tidy the ratios up, for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Be careful what you wish for. Putting a +1 on the Scout ratio would be a very easy way to tidy the ratios up, for instance.
    Hmmm...

    Good point.

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    Senior Member Fordy101's Avatar
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    on the topic of ratios how does the +1 work for mixed section events. For example if Beavers, Cubs and Scouts are all going on the same event how would you work out the ratio. So if you had 12 Beavers, 16 Cubs and 12 Scouts would that need 7 leaders or 6?
    Fordy


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordy101 View Post
    on the topic of ratios how does the +1 work for mixed section events. For example if Beavers, Cubs and Scouts are all going on the same event how would you work out the ratio. So if you had 12 Beavers, 16 Cubs and 12 Scouts would that need 7 leaders or 6?
    The leader* in charge is the person in charge of the event. If it is a joint event, then the person in charge of the Beavers is probably also in charge of the Cubs, and so the "plus 1" is the same person.

    * Although POR refers to the leader in charge, there is no reason why the person in charge couldn't be a 'Manager', 'Supporter' etc rather than a Leader.


    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    The leader* in charge is the person in charge of the event. If it is a joint event, then the person in charge of the Beavers is probably also in charge of the Cubs, and so the "plus 1" is the same person.

    * Although POR refers to the leader in charge, there is no reason why the person in charge couldn't be a 'Manager', 'Supporter' etc rather than a Leader.


    Paul
    So 6?
    Fordy


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordy101 View Post
    .......................So if you had 12 Beavers, 16 Cubs and 12 Scouts would that need 7 leaders or 6?
    6.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fordy101 View Post
    So 6?
    Clearly I think so - as our posts crossed!
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordy101 View Post
    on the topic of ratios how does the +1 work for mixed section events. For example if Beavers, Cubs and Scouts are all going on the same event how would you work out the ratio. So if you had 12 Beavers, 16 Cubs and 12 Scouts would that need 7 leaders or 6?
    What if you had 11 Beavers, 17 Cubs and 12 Scouts?
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    What if you had 11 Beavers, 17 Cubs and 12 Scouts?
    Still 6, as you can include 1 of the Cubs in the Beaver ratios as the ratio is lower.

    This all assumes that the group is staying together and not splitting up to do different activities.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    What if you had 11 Beavers, 17 Cubs and 12 Scouts?
    Risk assess it and take a view.

    I think counting one cub as a beaver and counting into their a lower ratio would be fine and justifiable, if beavers cubs and scouts are being treated as an amorphous blob. If they were staying at the same event but are in separate groups, then I'd probably try and find an extra adult for the cub section.

    Is what I think. But I'm an Explorer leader so I care not one jot for ratios.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    I meant to add in my earlier post - when I was a practising leader, I am not sure that I would take just 6 adults with 40 young people. In my view the more adults you can rustle up, the better!

    In my cub leading days, I don't think I ever organised a mix section camp, but would often have 24+ Cubs on camp and always tried to have at least 6 adults (7 if it was 24+1 or more) when I could have had only 4 within the rules. As I say, the more the merrier!
    Peter

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    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step.Ě Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    Hopefully there will be a correction in the next edition, but in the meantime the article adds to the confusion.
    I would be extremely surprised to see any correction, surprised the old chestnut about having to be in uniform for insurance purposes hasnt been trotted out.

    The danger with fixed mandatory ratios, is that it can set a minimum standard with the recommendation to risk assess adult supervision being ignored.
    Some events/activities will require more than the ratio, some may require less

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