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Thread: Ratios: POR v Scouting Magazine

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    I meant to add in my earlier post - when I was a practising leader, I am not sure that I would take just 6 adults with 40 young people. In my view the more adults you can rustle up, the better!

    In my cub leading days, I don't think I ever organised a mix section camp, but would often have 24+ Cubs on camp and always tried to have at least 6 adults (7 if it was 24+1 or more) when I could have had only 4 within the rules. As I say, the more the merrier!
    Totally agree. At Scout age I'd hate to take just 2 adults with any number to be honest. Having had to take YP home, or to hospital I wouldn't like to leave one adult with 20 Scouts on their own - especially as it may be many hours. Plus destressing, plus more activities etc.

  2. #17
    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    So, we took 18 Scouts to the dry ski slope - 7 were "experienced" so they went on the big slope. The other 11 were with an instructor on the (separate) training slope. How many leaders should I have had?
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
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    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

  3. #18
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    So, we took 18 Scouts to the dry ski slope - 7 were "experienced" so they went on the big slope. The other 11 were with an instructor on the (separate) training slope. How many leaders should I have had?
    3rd party organiser. Their rules.

    Parents pick up and drop off. You hang around, take photos and drink coffee. Sorted.

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  5. #19
    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    3rd party organiser. Their rules.

    Parents pick up and drop off. You hang around, take photos and drink coffee. Sorted.

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    I like that answer!
    We hung around,
    A couple of parents who know how to ski assessed the more experienced ones against Snowsports 2,
    Didn't get a coffee,
    Took some pictures and videos which are on our group website,
    Scouts really enjoyed themselves,
    Only injury was the bruised pride of one of the experienced ones trying to do some trick and ending up on their gluttonous maximus.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

  6. #20
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    Would it be fair to say, the rules around ratios are more to do with having rules around ratios than actual ratios in the real world?

    Asking for a friend...


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  8. #21
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Would it be fair to say, the rules around ratios are more to do with having rules around ratios than actual ratios in the real world?
    To be a humourless berk...

    They are the ratios as stated in rules as stated in POR. The POR we're supposed to follow. And yes, some rules are obviously bunk, but these seem fairly unequivocal. I think the thing to do is to picture yourself in court justifying why you ignored a rule you're supposed to follow. I mean, for example, if you were questioned on why you decided that your name tape didn't follow rule 10.25, and nothing bad happened, that might be an easier defence than when you ignored the stated ratios and Smithy went feral in the deep dark woods for three months.

    POR is mostly not like the Pirate Code.
    Ian Wilkins
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  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    They are the ratios as stated in rules as stated in POR. The POR we're supposed to follow. And yes, some rules are obviously bunk, but these seem fairly unequivocal.
    Except that the ratios are clearly described in POR as recommendations. For example:
    POR 3.7h
    The recommended minimum ratio both for outdoor activities held away from the usual meeting place and for nights away experiences is 1 adult to 6 Beaver Scouts plus the leader in charge.

    The rules around ratios are phrased as recommendations. If the ratios in POR were the minimum ratio allowed then surely this would be clear, rather than refering to a "recommended minimum".

    Yet another example of the poorly worded rule book that we are expected to follow.

    Worse still are those rules within POR that nobody follows but for some reason have never been deleted.


    Paul

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  12. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Would it be fair to say, the rules around ratios are more to do with having rules around ratios than actual ratios in the real world?

    Asking for a friend...

    They are the minimum ratios you should plan to have in place. There may be instances where you have a lower level, but this should be due to unavoidable and/or unexpected events and a risk assessment done on whether the activity should still go ahead or be changed to take account of the lower ratio of adults to YP.

    After all, if the brown stuff hits the fan, any other argument would not exactly stand up to questioning...
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Treasurer and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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  13. #24
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    Sure sure...

    The reason I mentioned it was because, presumably, if a leader has been through the correct recruitment process and subsequent training as ordained by POR, then the kind of human being who'd think it was okay to take thirty beavers rock climbing on their own with a ball of twine - would be weeded out.

    What I mean is, we risk assess all the time, or hopefully we do. Most people (assuming they're not Mr Bump) would have at least those ratios anyway. I mean, I'm not saying don't have them in POR, I'm merely commenting on their true reason for being, because if everything else around POR was working (or being adhered to), leaders shouldn't need to be told.


  14. #25
    Senior Member dasy2k1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Except that the ratios are clearly described in POR as recommendations. For example:
    POR 3.7h
    The recommended minimum ratio both for outdoor activities held away from the usual meeting place and for nights away experiences is 1 adult to 6 Beaver Scouts plus the leader in charge.

    The rules around ratios are phrased as recommendations. If the ratios in POR were the minimum ratio allowed then surely this would be clear, rather than refering to a "recommended minimum".

    Yet another example of the poorly worded rule book that we are expected to follow.

    Worse still are those rules within POR that nobody follows but for some reason have never been deleted.


    Paul
    However this is then overridden by the yellow card (which is mandatory in POR)
    "Do follow the adult to young person ratios at all times"

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  15. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Except that the ratios are clearly described in POR as recommendations. For example:
    POR 3.7h
    The recommended minimum ratio both for outdoor activities held away from the usual meeting place and for nights away experiences is 1 adult to 6 Beaver Scouts plus the leader in charge.

    The rules around ratios are phrased as recommendations. If the ratios in POR were the minimum ratio allowed then surely this would be clear, rather than refering to a "recommended minimum".

    Yet another example of the poorly worded rule book that we are expected to follow.

    Worse still are those rules within POR that nobody follows but for some reason have never been deleted.


    Paul
    Not disputing what it says, but if something goes wrong, and you had fewer adults, you would then have to answer why the recommended minimum was not followed. If of course you were following the recommended minimum you would still have to answer as to why you thought that was acceptable to your risk assessment.

  16. #27
    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasy2k1 View Post
    However this is then overridden by the yellow card (which is mandatory in POR)
    "Do follow the adult to young person ratios at all times"

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    Which is of course the source of many debates here, where the rules as written in POR often appear contradictory, are often not understood by those that should be ensuring that they are followed, and often "gold-plated" willy-nilly by all and sundry!

    Whatever did happen to the re-write of POR?
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


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  17. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasy2k1 View Post
    However this is then overridden by the yellow card (which is mandatory in POR)
    "Do follow the adult to young person ratios at all times"
    The yellow card, is described on the document as both a "Code of Practice" and a "Code of behaviour". In POR the yellow card is described as a Code of Behaviour which is essential to follow. The yellow card requires (or is it recommends?) that we "Do follow the adult-to-young person ratios at all times". But the ratios themselves are only recommendations.

    This is what comes of a mismash of rules, recommendations, Codes of Practice, Codes of Behaviour with the addition of local interpretation or local rules.

    I'm not suggesting that the recommendations should not be adhered to. But, such a key requirement/recommendation should be clearly described as either a requirement or a recommendation.


    Paul

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  19. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    I'm not suggesting that the recommendations should not be adhered to. But, such a key requirement/recommendation should be clearly described as either a requirement or a recommendation.
    The issue here is that the Yellow Card has moved on from being a fairly narrow "anti abuse"-related resource to a somewhat wider statement of which rules are the most important ones and the much wider Safeguarding of young people, which includes things like supervision levels to ensure safety.

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  21. #30
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    I imagine the ratios are recommendations because not all activities are equal, and I suppose not all groups of kids are either. About 60% of our troop could be left on their own, the other 40% could do with a 1-1 ratio.

    I still feel, it would be more efficacious if the training was a lot more accessible and, ummm, do-able? That way, perhaps there wouldn't need to be quiet so much bother with yellow cards etc. While you could still have it written down somewhere (hugely simplified), leaders (along with the common sense that was checked for during the joining process - I refuse to call it a recruitment/appointments process) would mean that people would be much more informed about what they're doing.

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