Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 54

Thread: Would you have done the same?

  1. #16
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    6,643
    Thanks
    1,544
    Thanked 2,182 Times in 1,272 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Escouts - 200 messages after 1st FB....
    Quality not quantity.

    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    Reading the Grimsby Telegraph piece it is hard to work out exactly what has gone on. The following quote hints at some internal community issues that might be the real cause of the resignations:

    "The young people were at the centre of everything we did as a Scout group, and sadly they are the ones who now miss out on a wealth of experiences due to the actions of an individual WITHIN our community."

    There can be few things more divisive than letting politics into a Scout Group. I think the POR rule is very sensible. Any hint of a Leader or anyone else using their access to Scouts as a means of promoting a party political view will trigger a negative reaction from those that oppose that view.
    Yes, either the complainant, or there was that quote from the outgoing councillor who said it was "shocking" and "controversial"...I mean, especially if people stoke it up and get it in the papers and go rabble rousing on facebook. Maybe said councillor didn't want to step down and this is payback? Who knows?

    Interesting little note I picked up on, that they apparently weren't doing it in uniform. Hmmm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I think there is a whiff of hypocracry over this.

    We are not political so we shouldn't deliver leaflets on one hand, but we are also not religious but it is ok to do the christmas post which is effectively delivering religious "paperwork".
    Aaah ha ha ha. Aye, right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    As for being non-political that seems to be something TSA turn on or off to suit - Water tax, Pride, Parliament week etc.
    Ummm, not really no. These are not party political matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I would suggest that someone has kicked up a big fuss locally and the Leaders have not felt supported by their local District and have all quit. I hope that individual is pleased with themselves for closing a Cub Pack and a Scout Troop and will be volunteering their time to help get them up and running again.
    Two chances of that, fat chance and no chance.


    And for everyone's delectation....POR 14.1 & 2. Though I mean you probably all know them off by heart anyway...

    Rule 14.1 Political Activities
    a. The Scout Movement is not connected with any political body.
    b. Members of the Movement in uniform, or individuals when acting as representatives of the
    Movement, must not take part in any party political meetings or activities that endorse any
    particular political party or candidate.

    Rule 14.2 Citizenship and Participation
    a. The Association, being concerned to help young people prepare for and take a constructive place
    in society, encourages, through its programme, the development of a positive attitude to the
    needs of the community.
    b. In pursuance of the Association's Purpose, each Member of the Movement shall, within the
    bounds of age and mental maturity, be encouraged:
     to become involved in the processes by which decisions are made within the Association
    and, to that end, to understand the organisation of the Association;
     to become more aware of major social issues at local, national and international level;
     to understand the processes of decision-making by organisations and by government, and to
    become aware of the individual's role in such processes.
    c. It is accepted that this will involve Members of the Movement with current social issues, some of
    which are controversial and may therefore have a political dimension. However, individuals
    representing the Association must not endorse any particular political party or candidate.
    d. If a recognised public authority makes a public request for volunteers to take action to avoid
    grave public danger or inconvenience, whether it arises from an industrial dispute or not, a Group
    Scout Leader, the Leader of a an Explorer Scout Unit, or a Scout Network Leader may, with the
    consent of the District Commissioner, offer the services of Scouts provided that each individual
    participates voluntarily.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ianw For This Useful Post:

    Bushfella (02-05-2019),shiftypete (02-05-2019)

  3. #17
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    3,405
    Thanks
    129
    Thanked 562 Times in 313 Posts
    I have delivered harvest festival food to old folks on behalf of the local church with Beavers all of us in uniform.

    Should this be stopped as we don't do "other" religions?
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  4. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    4,278
    Thanks
    1,524
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 857 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I have delivered harvest festival food to old folks on behalf of the local church with Beavers all of us in uniform.

    Should this be stopped as we don't do "other" religions?
    Some religions are more equal than others...

  5. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,440
    Thanks
    407
    Thanked 417 Times in 268 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I have delivered harvest festival food to old folks on behalf of the local church with Beavers all of us in uniform.

    Should this be stopped as we don't do "other" religions?
    There doesn't seem to be anyone standing for the CofE party in my local elections (or, looking at the leaflets, perhaps they all are?).

  6. #20
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    12,431
    Thanks
    3,596
    Thanked 1,202 Times in 797 Posts
    I am a political activist for a local branch of a national party and I could easily get some Explorers to deliver a load of political leaflets for me. I have never even seriously conisdered doing so as I know it would be wrong to do so and in fact I am scrupulously sure not to mix my political activities with my Scouting activities (partly why I don't mention the name of the political party above although I am sure its not hard to work/find out which one it is)

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to shiftypete For This Useful Post:

    ASLChris (02-05-2019)

  8. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    266
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 73 Times in 47 Posts
    kastor, I think you are conflating issues here. There are specific rules governing both political activities and religious activities. They are different because, from the outset, Scouting as a movement was spiritual but nonpolitical.

    Rule 14.1b states "Members of the Movement in uniform, or individuals when acting as representatives of the Movement, must not take part in <snip> activities that endorse any particular political party or candidate." (my bold). It's quite clear that rule has been broken.

    The things you mentioned are not related to political parties or candidates. The rain tax campaign was against Ofwat (a non-ministerial body), not a particular party, to try and help local scout groups. Parliament week is a non-party-political initiative designed to encourage participation in and understanding of British democratic process. Quite why you mentioned pride (a stance against discrimination/for equitable human rights) in a discussion about politics has confused me.

    By your line of thinking should we stop educating our young people about environmental issues because the Greens are passionate advocates?
    James

  9. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,420
    Thanks
    147
    Thanked 699 Times in 407 Posts
    We were out last week with Cubs (and then other sections on other nights) delivering programmes for the village festival ( as a community service thing) - we do that and help with a few stalls which helps us gain profile in the community. Anyway as we were out we encountered a few political canvassers as our council is up for election today. I did joke to another leader that at the rate we were racing through the deliveries we could make a fortune delivering party leaflets more efficiently than they would, but I was/am aware of the ban on political stuff so wouldn't actually do it.

    (Not that relevant but the kids really enjoyed it - we had a good system going, got them out and about in the area, and they were knocking them out pretty efficiently).
    Does anyone know what's going on?

  10. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    4,278
    Thanks
    1,524
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 857 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    kastor, I think you are conflating issues here. There are specific rules governing both political activities and religious activities. They are different because, from the outset, Scouting as a movement was spiritual but nonpolitical.

    Rule 14.1b states "Members of the Movement in uniform, or individuals when acting as representatives of the Movement, must not take part in <snip> activities that endorse any particular political party or candidate." (my bold). It's quite clear that rule has been broken.

    The things you mentioned are not related to political parties or candidates. The rain tax campaign was against Ofwat (a non-ministerial body), not a particular party, to try and help local scout groups. Parliament week is a non-party-political initiative designed to encourage participation in and understanding of British democratic process. Quite why you mentioned pride (a stance against discrimination/for equitable human rights) in a discussion about politics has confused me.

    By your line of thinking should we stop educating our young people about environmental issues because the Greens are passionate advocates?
    Agree with most of this, except this - "Members of the Movement in uniform, or individuals when acting as representatives of the Movement, must not take part in <snip> activities that endorse any particular political party or candidate." - specifically in the context of Parliament Week - which is as much an exercise in education as it is a puff piece about Westminster. (You get bunting in the pack...)

    Over the past few years, kids coming through have become more questioning and vocal about the things that transcend party politics but are political never-the-less.

    It's tricky.

    (Although the OP's subject isn't - that's pretty obvious. Gay Pride (for example) is a movement, but it's not a political one.)

  11. #24
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,684
    Thanks
    426
    Thanked 2,953 Times in 1,606 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Gay Pride (for example) is a movement, but it's not a political one.)
    But, the subject has been in the past. It is still in some countries.

    When does an issue become political, and when does a political issue become the norm? How do you get there? Politics?
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Bushfella For This Useful Post:

    pa_broon74 (02-05-2019)

  13. #25
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    3,405
    Thanks
    129
    Thanked 562 Times in 313 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    kastor, I think you are conflating issues here. There are specific rules governing both political activities and religious activities. They are different because, from the outset, Scouting as a movement was spiritual but nonpolitical.

    Rule 14.1b states "Members of the Movement in uniform, or individuals when acting as representatives of the Movement, must not take part in <snip> activities that endorse any particular political party or candidate." (my bold). It's quite clear that rule has been broken.
    But does delivering leaflets endorse the views in those leaflets?

    If they had delivered leaflets for all the parties would that be ok?


    As for religion not being political - hmmm. Why are Bishops sitting in the House of Lords? Try telling the middle east that religion is not political.


    I think people are chosing things to be political or non-political to suit their own bias and interests.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  14. #26
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    6,643
    Thanks
    1,544
    Thanked 2,182 Times in 1,272 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    Rule 14.1b states "Members of the Movement in uniform, or individuals when acting as representatives of the Movement, must not take part in <snip> activities that endorse any particular political party or candidate." (my bold). It's quite clear that rule has been broken.
    Except, the article suggests they weren't in uniform.

    Who knows the actual truth, apart from there's now a few less leaders in a group.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

  15. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    4,278
    Thanks
    1,524
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 857 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post

    I think people are choosing things to be political or non-political to suit their own bias and interests.
    This is a fair point. I wonder (for example) at the politics of who ever made the complaint...


    /holsters wooden spoon...



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    But, the subject has been in the past. It is still in some countries.

    When does an issue become political, and when does a political issue become the norm? How do you get there? Politics?
    Probably a Venn diagram in there somewhere...

  16. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    266
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 73 Times in 47 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    But does delivering leaflets endorse the views in those leaflets?

    If they had delivered leaflets for all the parties would that be ok?


    As for religion not being political - hmmm. Why are Bishops sitting in the House of Lords? Try telling the middle east that religion is not political.


    I think people are chosing things to be political or non-political to suit their own bias and interests.
    I notice you focused on the first part of the post, not the second where I directly answered your suggestion that as an association we are already involved in political matters.

    Whilst we might be, there are things which are inherently political subjects (human rights, environmental protection) where different groups of people can have different opinions which can sometimes be broadly aligned to political parties but these are markedly different to explicitly party political activities such as delivering leaflets on behalf of one party as happened here.

    I don't believe I ever said religion wasn't political, but even if I did it isn't party political which is what 14.1b refers to. The Lords Spiritual are not affiliated to a party in any case. Personally I believe they have no place in a modern democratic process unless other faiths of the people are proportionally represented or none at all, but that's a different argument altogether.

    Whatever pa_broon thinks of Parliament Week and how it is run etc, my point is it is not party political and does therefore not fall foul of 14.1b, which is what kastor was suggesting by bringing it into the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Except, the article suggests they weren't in uniform. Who knows the actual truth, apart from there's now a few less leaders in a group.
    No, but there is really no question that they were "individuals when acting as representatives of the Movement" if they were delivering leaflets in exchange for funding is there?
    Last edited by dragonhhjh; 02-05-2019 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Formatting issues
    James

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to dragonhhjh For This Useful Post:

    shiftypete (02-05-2019)

  18. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    4,278
    Thanks
    1,524
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 857 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    No, but there is really no question that they were "individuals when acting as representatives of the Movement" if they were delivering leaflets in exchange for funding is there?
    Agreed. The chat about the veg garden for Scouts to do a soup kitchen kind of links it.

    In this, I think you need to err on the side of caution for sure. If in doubt, don't. Surely they must have had some doubts about it?

  19. #30
    Group Scout Leader
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,094
    Thanks
    687
    Thanked 428 Times in 228 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    But does delivering leaflets endorse the views in those leaflets?

    If they'd been delivering leaflets for the local 'Fred's Pizza' place, would this be endorsing Fred's Pizza?


    Paul

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •