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Thread: Would you have done the same?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Firstly, thanks for the lecture, its always refreshing to be thought of as the lowest common denominator in threads. Of course, what you assumed I meant, is not what I actually said. You talked about party politics, I talked about morality. Would it matter if TSA took a morality stance (as it often does), if it that stance happened to coincide with what a political party are, or are not proposing - should TSA then not support that stance?

    And, I'm not talking about amplifying my views, I'm talking about clear cases of moral rights and moral wrongs - on the fringes there are subjective points that are best left alone, but some things are cut and dried. But I go back to my point about assumptions, if something is clearly morally right or wrong, you're not 'amplifying your views', your teaching kids about right and wrong, and about critical thinking, and about judgement - which is certainly within the remit of scouting.

    For what it's worth, I agree with you. Moral aims tend to be fixed, it's how those aims are achieved that often causes ructions. It seems to me, part of the social contract (regardless if whether you're a scout leader or not) is to set a good example for the former - and give kids the tools so they can make their own minds up about the latter.
    My apologies. I am aware that my attempts to express myself in these types of forums can descend into lecturing, it is perhaps a failure in my analytical and communication capabilities - ho hum, can't be good at everything. I am told that I do so in normal life too, but it is easier to pick up on the blank bored faces of the audience if they are actually in front of you

  2. #47
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    You know... Digressing slightly, okay, a lot.

    I do wonder if at times, by not setting your stall out, not challenging certain behaviours or political ideas and using the we-mustn't-be-bias argument to justify it, is actually part of the problem with the current culture.

    People at either extreme don't pay any attention to such niceties, they just pile in with the brain washing. Is it fair to say our unwillingness - our fear of pinning our colours to the mast - in some way, lets the fringe elements in by the back door?

    For clarity, I'm not talking about leaflets, I'm still talking about morality. I mean, if the reasonable middle don't make themselves heard, is it any wonder the rockets at either end of the spectrum fill that void?

    Also, we seem to be so bothered about delicate sensibilities these days. Kids (and some adults) can never be offended - and I mean that in the broadest of senses. You can't offend with words and you can't offend with ideas. It's got to the stage where things you don't agree with (however erroneously) can be dismissed as offence and no-platformed - and we now pander to it. In the history of humankind, has anything ever got better by not talking about it?

    I'm not a Tory, (I know, it may be a shock ). But I get that all they're trying to do is get to the same place I am, just with different methods - methods that I sometimes find offensive. But I would never suggest they be shut down or no-platformed (say). But, there are those now who do. They think if they don't agree with a thing, without even trying to understand why they don't agree with it,or why people might hold those views - they just pretend it doesn't exist and cry foul if they and it cross paths.

    It's a difficult line to walk, being honest to the point of offence, but not being cruel about it. But there are cruel people in the world, and I can't help but feel, that in order for kids to be able to deal properly with those people, they need to know they exist - almost like a vaccination, they need to be subjected to small doses of it every now and again.

    What has that got to do with these leaflets? Ummm, nothing I think... I suppose as an activity, you could get all the party's various leaflets and sit down and have a discussion about it, compare and contrast policies maybe... I think many of my scouts (probably me too), would be bored out their skulls. Which might be a result of...

    I'll stop now...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    My apologies. I am aware that my attempts to express myself in these types of forums can descend into lecturing, it is perhaps a failure in my analytical and communication capabilities - ho hum, can't be good at everything. I am told that I do so in normal life too, but it is easier to pick up on the blank bored faces of the audience if they are actually in front of you
    No apology required. I'm the same, I some times hear myself beginning to 'hold forth' on a topic and I have to tell myself to shut up. Also, as you said - on forums, it's sometimes difficult to read between the lines - or not as the case may be.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    You know... Digressing slightly, okay, a lot.


    Also, we seem to be so bothered about delicate sensibilities these days. Kids (and some adults) can never be offended - and I mean that in the broadest of senses. You can't offend with words and you can't offend with ideas.
    I may be taking this out of context, apologies, but you absolutely can offend with words and images...

    I thought better recently of commenting on local social media about mental health, and had intended being positive... but then I deleted what I had written because I realised that almost every element of what I was trying to say would be misconstrued and create offence and upset. So, I say nothing. I play by the rules and more kids fall into the trap of anxiety and depression... I am sure that in 10 years' time the experts will decide that we have screwed up by pandering...
    Last edited by Bushfella; 03-05-2019 at 12:08 PM.
    Ewan Scott

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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I may be taking this out of context, apologies, but you absolutely can offend with words and images...
    I could be wrong but I read is as you are not allowed to rather than you can not. (as in not able to).

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    I could be wrong but I read is as you are not allowed to rather than you can not. (as in not able to).
    Indeed.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I may be taking this out of context, apologies, but you absolutely can offend with words and images...

    I thought better recently of commenting on local social media about mental health, and had intended being positive... but then I deleted what I had written because I realised that almost every element of what I was trying to say would be misconstrued and create offence and upset. So, I say nothing. I play by the rules and more kids fall into the trap of anxiety and depression... I am sure that in 10 years' time the experts will decide that we have screwed up by pandering...
    What DaveB said.

    I think you definitely need to be careful about the words you use, but I find it's not overly difficult to pick your moments. As you say though, I often find myself typing a lot of stuff out then deleting it (contrary to what may appear here).

    I think what you say above is the flip side of not giving offence, people these days don't really want to give anything, be it positive or negative. It's as if we fear the repercussions either way. So we can't give offence because that's bad and we can't be too compassionate because that could be misread and also be bad.

    We're all being hemmed into a very impersonal and inhumane corner. The management term for it is working (or living) in silos.

    Last night I finished the scout meeting with a reminder that Scouts isn't only a shallow fun thing they do on a Thursday night, it's also a support structure, and if they ever feel cornered, then we'd all be there for them. That's not to say they'll ever take us up on it, but it is (I think) incumbent on us to make them aware that we're there in required. For what it's worth, the reaction is broadly somber, with hints of bravado here and there.

    I always feel awkward saying it and curse silently the way society has made us embarrassed or too paranoid to care.

    Which has hee haw to do with leaflets being delivered right enough, but maybe has something to do with how we're all interacting with each other these days.

    Just not with leaflets.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    What DaveB said.

    I think you definitely need to be careful about the words you use, but I find it's not overly difficult to pick your moments.
    We did an ANZAC session - we opened with Waltzing Matilda, we did some games, we had ANZAC biscuits, we finishes watching a video with "The Band Played Walzing Matilda" as backing music.

    One individual got anxious, had a breakdown moment, had to leave the room ... I'll not go into the details, but the non-graphic video and the words to the song were too much for that individual and I should have been more considerate...

    I had to hold myself back. This was to me, a point where pandering (by others) had created more issues than it addressed.

    Sometimes we all have to face up to things we don't like. But, as you say, by discusing them we can address them.
    Ewan Scott

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  9. #53
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    That was back when TSA employed Stella Creasy as head of campaigns or some such role before she rather controversially in my mind stood as and was elected as a Labour MP whilst being employed by TSA.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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