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Thread: #SkillsForLife is killing the District

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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I tend to be more pro HQ stuff than anti.... in this case though. Wow. Rarely have I read something so completely out of touch with reality on the ground. It reads like something created by someone who has never been near a scout hut in their life. Seriously. Who writes this nonsense?

    I suspect that (thankfully) it will be forgotten in a couple of years when someone else comes with the latest great idea.

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    I kind of agree with the idea of district events being scout skills for life things like incident hikes rather than things the kids can do elsewhere like swimming galas and footballs comps. But its plain out of order to tell people that are successfully running such events they are doing the wrong thing

    Anything that anyone volunteers to run should be celebrated and embraced, itll soon enough be clear whether it's a good idea based on the attendance.

    We used to have loads but Currently the only district events we have are an annual soft play trip which is massively popular but nothing to do with scouting and a night hike, which the district dropped but my troop now run and invite everyone. I do lament the passing of some of our district events, certainly not the swimming gala but the camping competition and things like that. I dont blame the leaders really because I think people have less time to organise them and also the age range changes ruined trying to run previously popular heavy scout skills events.

  4. #18
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    I tend to be more pro HQ stuff than anti.... in this case though. Wow. Rarely have I read something so completely out of touch with reality on the ground. It reads like something created by someone who has never been near a scout hut in their life. Seriously. Who writes this nonsense?

    I suspect that (thankfully) it will be forgotten in a couple of years when someone else comes with the latest great idea.
    The fact that they say a District shouldn't run a swimming gala (then how are YP supposed to get the simmer stage badges which require participation in a competition?) or cooking competitions (many YP don't get to cook at home, and cooking is a very important #skillforlife) is ridiculous and should be roundly ignored. However, I do agree that football/chess tournaments shouldn't be done as district events as YP who are interested in them will do them externally.
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Treasurer and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Pepper View Post
    I kind of agree with the idea of district events being scout skills for life things like incident hikes rather than things the kids can do elsewhere like swimming galas and footballs comps. But its plain out of order to tell people that are successfully running such events they are doing the wrong thing
    But what is a skill for life?

    You mention an incident hike.

    In what way is that more of a skill for life than cooking, sport (healthy life) etc. What sort of life skills do we want/need to train on etc.

    Also the list given seemed to say that anything that wasn't inclusive because restricted numbers. It will be interesting to see how the District end up supporting the Leaders and their programmes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The fact that they say a District shouldn't run a swimming gala (then how are YP supposed to get the simmer stage badges which require participation in a competition?) or cooking competitions (many YP don't get to cook at home, and cooking is a very important #skillforlife) is ridiculous and should be roundly ignored. However, I do agree that football/chess tournaments shouldn't be done as district events as YP who are interested in them will do them externally.
    But with football/chess etc whilst I agree that someone big into it will go to a specialised club, but what about one offs.

    Our District used to have a ten pin bowling comp on one day. If someone was really interested they would join a club but for a one off it was fun.

    There are other specialised things like climbing, potholing, skiing etc that need co-operation of the District as many leaders cannot lead these and may only have a couple of kids who want to do them.

    There are many things that Groups probably need a larger number than they can muster to make an activity viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    I tend to be more pro HQ stuff than anti.... in this case though. Wow. Rarely have I read something so completely out of touch with reality on the ground. It reads like something created by someone who has never been near a scout hut in their life. Seriously. Who writes this nonsense?

    I suspect that (thankfully) it will be forgotten in a couple of years when someone else comes with the latest great idea.

    I am not involved but I took a scan read of this document.

    I have to say that much of what it is saying is what I had been saying for 20 years.

    As a Leader, I wanted District events, I wanted people encouraged to get involved. I wanted DCs to come to my meetings and get involved - I never felt any threat from those rare visits. I could see a need for skills development opportunities for leaders and the need to encourage participation. On a scan through there is not too much that I would disagree with. I can recall as an ADC visiting a Group and the SL coming out to meet me outside the hall. He did not want me knowing what was going on at the meeting. Another would say he was in and available and then when I arrived they would be somewhere else. I only got to see what was going on by making an unannounced visit - and when I did I understood exactly why he didn't want me visiting.

    However, as always, TSA has set out an ideal that few will meet, or even try to attain. I can recall Wayne's call for growth. I went out and pushed and grew my Group almost every year. The wider District though never saw any real growth because for every one I added, another one left somewhere else. Essentially, people did not have the time, nor in some cases, perhaps the will, to make things grow. It will be the same with this.

    The insistace that young people need to get as wide a range of activities and experiences as they can is, I suspect, not always the case. In many cases what they want, and what they need, is a place of safety where they can be themselves with their like-mided friends. Maybe do a few different activites etc., but they are secondary to the comradeship - and I will say it again, the Esprit de Corps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    In what way is that more of a skill for life than cooking, sport (healthy life) etc. What sort of life skills do we want/need to train on etc.
    Indeed. Taking part in swimming galas, and being the troop football team sub goalie, taught me valuable lessons in humility.


    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Also the list given seemed to say that anything that wasn't inclusive because restricted numbers. It will be interesting to see how the District end up supporting the Leaders and their programmes.
    You mean like....the World Scout Jamborees...bet they don't start discouraging selection for that!
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The fact that they say a District shouldn't run a swimming gala (then how are YP supposed to get the simmer stage badges which require participation in a competition?) or cooking competitions (many YP don't get to cook at home, and cooking is a very important #skillforlife) is ridiculous and should be roundly ignored. However, I do agree that football/chess tournaments shouldn't be done as district events as YP who are interested in them will do them externally.
    I need to take time to read in more detail...

    Some District events are excellent ways of making some activities and experiences available. However, I disagree that it is always the case that those who are interested in specific activities will join clubs for those specific activities.

    Having been driven to obtain Kayak coaching qualifications, which I only did for the benefit of my Scouts, kayaking became a core activity at our group. I was told by an ACC that I should not be running courses for Scouts, if they wanted to kayak they should join a kayak club. What then was the point in having a requirement for a L2 Kayak qualification before you could take kids kayaking? Was all that training and expense just for the odd taster session?

    Some groups will offer expertise in one field or another, but not all will, so District events can be useful to spread the experience, and I thought that was what it was saying.

    I think that, in general, the Do Not list is about reducing the participation limiting events - but then again, you have a District Chess Tournament - everyone gets to play. Group tournaments provide the Group winners to go through to District, so no-one misses out. Not sure why a District Firework Party is on the Do Not list?

    The logic does not follow though, if you have 200 Scouts in a District and because you have, say, only two kayak coaches and limited kit, then you have to run exclusive activities. You could only do a taster weekend for all by bringing in help from elsewhere - but in a back scratching exercise all that would ever happen would be a stream of taster sessions. Of course, the kids interested in kayaking could then go to a kayak club... So, leaders who had been driven to qualify to take the activity, would bet fed up with taster sessions, and we would never train our own Coaches from the scouts we have trained...

    Slight bee in bonnet about taster sessions... I hate running them. I don't like box ticking exercises.

    It IS worth remembering that BP was not in favour of competitions and trophys - He was at one time firmly against them as being elitist and divisive - but then again, he did tend to vacillate on some subjects.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 10-05-2019 at 08:45 AM.
    Ewan Scott

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  10. #23
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I need to take time to read in more detail...

    Some District events are excellent ways of making some activities and experiences available. However, I disagree that it is always the case that those who are interested in specific activities will join clubs for those specific activities.

    Having been driven to obtain Kayak coaching qualifications, which I only did for the benefit of my Scouts, kayaking became a core activity at our group. I was told by an ACC that I should not be running courses for Scouts, if they wanted to kayak they should join a kayak club. What then was the point in having a requirement for a L2 Kayak qualification before you could take kids kayaking? Was all that training and expense just for the odd taster session?

    Some groups will offer expertise in one field or another, but not all will, so District events can be useful to spread the experience, and I thought that was what it was saying.

    I think that, in general, the Do Not list is about reducing the participation limiting events - but then again, you have a District Chess Tournament - everyone gets to play. Group tournaments provide the Group winners to go through to District, so no-one misses out. Not sure why a District Firework Party is on the Do Not list?

    The logic does not follow though, if you have 200 Scouts in a District and because you have, say, only two kayak coaches and limited kit, then you have to run exclusive activities. You could only do a taster weekend for all by bringing in help from elsewhere - but in a back scratching exercise all that would ever happen would be a stream of taster sessions. Of course, the kids interested in kayaking could then go to a kayak club... So, leaders who had been driven to qualify to take the activity, would bet fed up with taster sessions, and we would never train our own Coaches from the scouts we have trained...

    Slight bee in bonnet about taster sessions... I hate running them. I don't like box ticking exercises.

    It IS worth remembering that BP was not in favour of competitions and trophys - He was at one time firmly against them as being elitist and divisive - but then again, he did tend to vacillate on some subjects.
    But do they need to be DISTRICT events?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I need to take time to read in more detail...

    Some District events are excellent ways of making some activities and experiences available. However, I disagree that it is always the case that those who are interested in specific activities will join clubs for those specific activities.

    Having been driven to obtain Kayak coaching qualifications, which I only did for the benefit of my Scouts, kayaking became a core activity at our group. I was told by an ACC that I should not be running courses for Scouts, if they wanted to kayak they should join a kayak club. What then was the point in having a requirement for a L2 Kayak qualification before you could take kids kayaking? Was all that training and expense just for the odd taster session?
    Frankly, that ACC was talking out of their bum hole.

    Why would you have a 4 stage paddle sports activity badge if you can't earn them in scouts because you only do a taster session once a year?

    Of course, I can't square the circle of a balanced programme with going kayaking more than a couple of times a year, but I can see if I was a dead keen kayaker I'd be taking Explorers out 3-4 times in the summer term and away for a weekend or two on the water every year, and they'd be achieving those mysterious badge things. I know some units manage it, Wild Wolf in west London for one seem to be always out in their canoes for example, from what I see on their instagram, and more power to them.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Frankly, that ACC was talking out of their bum hole.
    If I recall, that was sort of what I said at the time.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Indeed. Taking part in swimming galas, and being the troop football team sub goalie, taught me valuable lessons in humility.




    You mean like....the World Scout Jamborees...bet they don't start discouraging selection for that!
    Not just that but anything. Say for instance they put on a canoeing day and 200 turn up because all were invited but they can only cope with 50 over the day.

    Also where is the line drawn in being inclusive. Does everyone get their section top award as it would be unfair for someone not to get it as they didn't get the necessary challenges due to not turning up.

    I am not talking about making allowances for those less able here either.

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    With a District cooking competition, how is that not skills for life??
    You often read that an increasing number of people struggle with cooking and rely on expensive take aways/ready meals

    And as for limiting numbers- how?
    If you have a competition like that that requires teams of 4 Scouts, then whats to stop a section/group putting in two teams? if the mumbers dotn work, then whats stopping a clause stating that teams of Three or Five are acceptable with agreement from the organiser?
    If District wont organise it, then whats stopping a group/section doing it? if you have a cooking competition format that works well, and gets enough people then why stop?

    District wise we used to have the following

    Beaver activity day ( if this was still in existence it could be extended with an optional sleepover )
    Cub Cooking competition - usually the same weekend each year around mid march
    District Cub Camp - 3rd weekend of June
    District Scout Camping Competition last weekend of September
    District Scout Cooking competition - Last weekend of November

    That was pretty much it, not all sections could make it every year, but the events were there on a take it or leave it basis and it wasnt event overload, some of the events are slowly being revivied, although after a break of a few years it doesnt take long for the rythym/cycle to be broken and momentum to be lost

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    Our District Beaver events are something like
    District Beaver Family Walk usually late spring/early summer
    District Beaver Coach Trip - To various approriate locations such as Yorkshire Wildlife Park, Sundown Adventureland, Forbidden Corner etc etc
    District Beaver Funday held at local County Campsite usually in early September
    District Beaver Swimming Badge afternoon
    District Beaver Pantomime Trip
    District Beaver Christmas Craft/Chinese New Year evening (alternates each year so Beavers do both if in for 2 years)

    We have done sports days and 5 aside football comps in the past as well.

    The ADC isn't responsible for organising all of these though, only the funday and the coach trip (they also co-ordinate the crafts for the christmas/chinese new year craft evening just to avoid two Colonies bringing the same craft to do). All the other activities are led by a Colony who offer to run the event for that year so spreading the load out but they are still District events and offer more opperunities for Beavers across the District

    With something like 20 Colonies in the District now they certainly don;t get all the Colonies at all the events but there is always a good number at each event so certainly worthwhile running them and the Beavers really enjoy them.

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    Senior Member Douglas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    Wow. Rarely have I read something so completely out of touch with reality on the ground. It reads like something created by someone who has never been near a scout hut in their life. Seriously. Who writes this nonsense?

    I suspect that (thankfully) it will be forgotten in a couple of years when someone else comes with the latest great idea.
    I hadn't seen this document before, but having read it I'm not about to discard what we do as a district, which is a programme of events which reflects what the PLs forum asked for and is intended to complement what individual troops do.

    I note that it is dated May 2018, but this is the first I have heard of it. Had I not been lurking on escouts I may have continued to be blissfully ignorant of its existence.

    I'm a sectional ADC. I'm there to provide support, of which district events is a part. I also do sectional visits, though like a lot of people holding district appointments I also hold a group appointment and I can't always prioritise sectional visits over other Scouting stuff. Sometimes personal stuff gets in the way, too. We are all volunteers and lead busy lives. In my case as I suspect for many other Scouty people, I volunteer on some non-Scouting stuff as well.

    I'm not there to provide leader training. We have other people who do that.

    When the document gets on to district events I'm detecting a certain negativity. It appears to be looking for reasons not to hold district events, rather than reasons why an event might be worthwhile.
    we must consider whether volunteers’ time is best spent organising District events, because we’ve always run them or because as adults we enjoy running them
    Whilst it’s reasonable to question, if it’s an event that the adults enjoy running that’s something to go in the plus column.

    Does the event address an area of the programme which most sections in the District currently struggle with? And if so, how will the event provide an opportunity for leaders to deliver that area of the programme themselves in their sections in the future?
    It shouldn’t necessarily be seen as a stepping stone to troops delivering a part of the programme. Adult leaders from different groups working together is a good thing. Scouts from different groups working together is also a good thing.

    Does the event provide an opportunity for every young person in the District to take part? If the event only caters for 50 Scouts and there are 300 Scouts in the District, is this event a good use of volunteer time and resources? Have young people been involved in shaping these activities?

    This is where it gets really silly. We’re having a district dragon boating day this Sunday, run by the local water activities centre. There will be between 60 & 70 Scouts taking part, which is close to the limit of what the centre can cope with. They will earn the activity badge, but it also contains an element of competition. But we have 200 Scouts in the district, so should we not run this event because there isn’t the capacity to accommodate every Scout in the district, which is what the Programme Support document seems to be suggesting. Incidentally, it was the PLs forum that requested it.

    We have other events where we don’t have the capacity for every Scout in the district to take part. One is an incident hike which also fulfils the requirements of the Expedition Challenge. It’s a whole lot easier to arrange than it would be for troops to arrange their own Expedition Challenge badges, the Scouts from different troops get to mix and socialise with each other and we throw in an element of competition and some downright silliness.

    Someone from the neighbouring district once said that whilst we can do Scouting in our individual troops in isolation, it’s a whole lot more fun when we do it together. [He probably articulated it rather better than I have.]

    But we wouldn’t cope if every Scout wanted to take part. Typically about ¼ to 1/3 of the Scouts in the district will take part each year, and over a four year cycle all Scouts will have the opportunity to take part.

    There’s an argument that district should be providing events where there’s too little interest within individual troops to make them viable – some of the less popular badges where perhaps 5% of the district membership are interested but which become viable at a district level.

    Do leaders in the District have the capacity to support this event? Or will it distract them from delivering a high quality programme in their own sections if they are being asked to help organise this event?
    It doesn’t distract from their troop programmes, it complements them. If that ceases to be the case, then (warning: regional stereotype alert)

    as plain speaking Yorkshire folk they will say so.

    Events which we should NOT run within a District
    • Swimming gala
    • Chess competition
    • Handicraft competition
    • Cooking competition
    • Firework display
    • Football tournament
    • Any competition event with team number
    restrictions
    I’m not at all sure it helps to be as prescriptive as this. There may be good reasons why some of these type of events are worthwhile.

    We used to have a swimming gala and a football competition. It’s noticeable how the events we have dropped in recent years have tended to be the sporting ones (swimming, football, table tennis, basketball/rugby).

    The Cub section still does a chess competition, not sure whether it is part of a larger event.

    A cooking competition, whilst necessarily restricted on numbers, is part of something larger because troops run their own cooking troop nights in order to select participants to go forward to the district competition.

    I don’t have any objection to a firework display, though I think it’s more likely to be a fundraiser than a programme activity for one or more of the sections.

    I find the objection to a competition with team number restrictions bizarre. Logistically, it will often be impracticable to run an event for all 200 Scouts. Not every Scout will want to take part or have the skills necessary. Neither of those is a reason to cancel. If they don’t get to take part in a particular district event in their first year as a Scout, chances are that opportunity will come around in subsequent years.

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    As a County Exec member I hadn't seen the May 2018 District Programme Support document - and I agree with the other posters who don't like the prescriptive 'Do NOT run these events' approach. If Leaders don't enjoy organising events they wont run them! And if they do enjoy running them, and there is a reasonable chance for all the Sections in the District to take part I dont see the problem; if the YP don't want to attend they won't.
    One of the thing I remember from my time in the Troop (long ago I know) and from my time running a Troop in the period 1996 to 2002 is the enjoyment some Scouts got from entering competitive events - it seems no coincidence to me that those YP who entered those District events were mostly the ones who ended up as Queens Scouts - and those who didn't did not make the transition to Explorers at all... They met Scouts from other Troops, saw places and tried activities that we would not have run within the Troop - e.g. how many Troops try Orienteering?
    “A week of camp life is worth six months of theoretical teaching in the meeting room.” Baden-Powell

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