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Thread: Hiking rules

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    Hiking rules

    Seeing all the Jott photos over on FB. And huge lines of people walking in very large groups. Can I assume no one bothers following the hiking fact sheet any longer fs135068 is groups of no more than 7?
    Paul Austin
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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Seeing all the Jott photos over on FB. And huge lines of people walking in very large groups. Can I assume no one bothers following the hiking fact sheet any longer fs135068 is groups of no more than 7?
    hiking vs strolling... most groups go for a walk together, i guess. Not a hike with all that goes with it. (the sheet suggests a walk to a national trust property, rather than a walk around one... as many groups will do)

    when does a walk become a hike? walk to swimming pool in groups of 8 from scout hut? that seems fair. it is not hiking, right? not normally. even in a group of 10 or more if safe.

    like the difference between mountaineering and being on a mountain. (train up snowdon vs hike up snowdon. look at viewpoint in carpark at 550m vs walk to same viewpoint from 150m)

    also FS315078
    Last edited by big chris; 11-05-2019 at 09:23 PM.

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    As per POR Rule 9.32 party size restrictions only apply to hikes in terrain 1 or 2. Hikes in terrain 0 do not have to follow this restriction.
    https://members.scouts.org.uk/por9.32

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    As per POR Rule 9.32 party size restrictions only apply to hikes in terrain 1 or 2. Hikes in terrain 0 do not have to follow this restriction.
    https://members.scouts.org.uk/por9.32
    i'd nor read it like that.

    a hike in t0, is still a hike... so party size from the factsheet seems relevant.

    then you look at por for t1 and t2 and that allows larger parties!

    so, really... this only applies to hikes in t0, doesn't it?

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    The very first line of POR 9.32 which sets out the party size restrictions is
    For activities in Terrain One and Two as defined in Rules 9.29 & 9.30
    So clearly the party size restrictions do not apply in terrain 0 regardless of what activity you are undertaking.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 11-05-2019 at 09:31 PM.

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    The very first line of POR 9.32 whihc sets out the party size restrictions is So clearly the party size restrictions do not apply in terrain 0 regardless of what activity you are undertaking.
    So if organising a hike, one then looks at the factsheet. That says very clearly that you can't have more than 7 in a group. (No terrain mentioned)

    But that is proper hiking, looking at the context. Maps, compasses, rucskacks, teamwork, navigation etc. Not a stroll on well defined footpaths for a couple of hours with families.



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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Even if doing proper hiking in terrain 0 the party size restrictions do not apply, POR is clear on that. Unfortunately that factsheet is either badly worded or even wrong and is certainly out of date given the only version I could find is 15 years old and refers to things like having to have a home contact.

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Out of date. Yup. Probably wrong. Yup.

    But! Pretty clear. As it stands. If setting kids off hiking or doing it with them, you cannot have a group of more than 7. I guess that once it becomes T1, it is classed as hillwalking etc.

    But shrugs. I'm not worried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    But! Pretty clear. As it stands. If setting kids off hiking or doing it with them, you cannot have a group of more than 7
    According to that factsheet but factsheets are for advice and information, they do not set out rules (unless POR says you have to follow a particular factsheet, which it does not in this case). POR sets the rules that we have to follow when doing activities and POR allows hiking in terrain 0 in whatever sized group your risk assessment allows for. I have hiked many many times (more than I can possibly count) with groups of Scouts larger than 7 in terrain 0.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Seeing all the Jott photos over on FB. And huge lines of people walking in very large groups. Can I assume no one bothers following the hiking fact sheet any longer fs135068 is groups of no more than 7?



    Thinks of the mass DoE hikes...
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Dofe should not have mass hikes. For a start they specify a max of 7 (8 for tandem cycling and canoeing) for team size, and last year they changed their rules to stop teams following the same routes separated just by time (unless their is only one route such as a mountain pass or a river). How effective they are in applying the rules is a different question.

    For scouting my view is that teams should be as close to the specified size in T0 as well as in T1 & T2 if for no other reason it is an opportunity to train the scouts in good practice, give scouts some responsibility in a safe environment etc.

    I’m also concerned with pictures of various challenge type hiking “competitions” showing scout teams with less than 4 people. It’s not totally clear if the team size is actually less than 4 and some are missing from the phots or are they ignoring rule 9.32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    I’m also concerned with pictures of various challenge type hiking “competitions” showing scout teams with less than 4 people. It’s not totally clear if the team size is actually less than 4 and some are missing from the phots or are they ignoring rule 9.32
    I would strongly suspect the team is of 4 or more and you are only seeing some of the team in any photos. For example I walk in a Scout competion walk every year (www.sixdales.co.uk) and their rules are clear you have to be in a team of 4 to 7 at all times apart from towards the last 4 or 5 miles of the 42 mile walk when teams of 2 are allowed as its all road walking and you have to walk on a set route at that point. I am fairly often walking in a team of 4 or 5 but I am never in my own photos for starters and then its fairly usual for me to be in the middle of the team (deliberately so if walking with Scouts so I can keep an eye on and talk to all the team members) so 1 or 2 in front of me and 1 or 2 behind so whichever way I take a photo at least 2 of the team members will not be in the photo.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

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    I think its there for very good reason. of the tragic histroic incidents I know of from Snowdon to the beaver fatality only a few years back (which was a simple evening walk) keepoing party size small was a key finding. I am just suprised so many leaders dont seem to know the "guidance" or no management structure is reminding leaders of the importance of it.
    Paul Austin
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    The humble chip hike is safe! (from becoming an unwieldy exercise in rule following)

    Its really not that helpful to pluck a rule out from the middle of others that it is clearly a part of. Rule 9.32 is part of a string of rules starting at 9.26 (hill walking and off road cycling permits)

    In fact the on-line version of POR helpfully inserts a link to a fact sheet covering activities in terrain ‘0 (after rule 9.28 - T ‘0’ definition) https://members.scouts.org.uk/FS120426 which I think clears up matters nicely

    For an activity (read hike) in T ‘0’ consideration should be given to ’how many adults are needed (no less than the section ratios listed in POR)’. So the group can be as small or as large as you like, so long as you have the supervision

    Just for a second I thought our annual Group sponsored hike was at risk. Or that I was a habitual rule breaker.
    Last edited by bigcheese; 13-05-2019 at 07:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I think its there for very good reason. of the tragic histroic incidents I know of from Snowdon to the beaver fatality only a few years back (which was a simple evening walk) keeping party size small was a key finding. I am just suprised so many leaders dont seem to know the "guidance" or no management structure is reminding leaders of the importance of it.

    There were a couple of cases one on T1, another in T0, where kids went astray and by the time the Leaders realised it was too late. With younger and inexperienced groups, party size needs to be determined by how many kids you can safely supervise - that will depend upon the nature of the group.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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