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Thread: POR Updated

  1. #16
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    But an Explorer could be married. Not to a Cub, obviously.
    And are Network young people in this context? Who knows.

    Anyway, like I'm allowed to officiate Explorer weddings as DESC, are Cub leaders not allowed to do same with cubs?
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Interesting how the Equal Opportunities Policy states that No young person should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage, harassment or discrimination by reason of ... national origin or nationality, but that POR 3.1d states that "approval of an appropriate Commissioner" is required before "Foreign residents in the United Kingdom" can become a Member or Associate Member.


    Paul
    Does the Equal Opps Policy however refer to Members rather than Prospective Members i.e. once you have agreed to take a person into your Group you must follow the policy.

    There used to be (may still be) a rule saying that the GSL generally decided who could join the Group. Again once someone has joined the policy comes into effect.

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Does the Equal Opps Policy however refer to Members rather than Prospective Members i.e. once you have agreed to take a person into your Group you must follow the policy.
    No it refers to ALL young people and any adults volunteering regardless of whether they are already members or associate members or not, that is kind of a large point of the policy.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Does the Equal Opps Policy however refer to Members rather than Prospective Members i.e. once you have agreed to take a person into your Group you must follow the policy.

    There used to be (may still be) a rule saying that the GSL generally decided who could join the Group. Again once someone has joined the policy comes into effect.
    Rule 3.2 Admission to membership

    a. The decision to admit anyone to membership of a Scout Group rests with the Group Scout
    Leader, in accordance with The Scout Association’s policies. In the case of a Sponsored Scout
    Group, this decision should also be subject to the recruitment policy (if any) defined in any
    sponsorship agreement.
    So presumably the GSL can discriminate, just not on any of the grounds laid out in the "Equal Opportunities Policy".

    I think that the only negative discrimination we apply is "we don't have enough leaders or nights of the week left".

    The only positive discrimination we apply is "your parent is willing to become a uniformed leader?".

    Otherwise when making a decision on whether to allow a YP to join the only information that we use is their date of birth.

  5. #20
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    I can't think that I'd know the nationality of any of my Explorers unless they'd explicitly told me. Or if memory serves...turn up in their Aussie uniform, or I was taking them on an international and it turned out their passport was Irish, and even that's not a given.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    So presumably the GSL can discriminate, just not on any of the grounds laid out in the "Equal Opportunities Policy".

    I think that the only negative discrimination we apply is "we don't have enough leaders or nights of the week left".

    The only positive discrimination we apply is "your parent is willing to become a uniformed leader?".

    Otherwise when making a decision on whether to allow a YP to join the only information that we use is their date of birth.
    But of course that is because people no longer use the 'joining forms' that ask lots of info.

    Instead Jonny comes along with his mate or if we are really lucky a parent and we get a name, address, phone number, date of birth and little else.

    We then complain when the census comes and we don't know what his ethnicity is or any of his possible disabilities. Or we find out on a camp that he suffers ADHD or something and that he is in fact Jewish so can only eat certain things.

    We all do it and don't get enough info about the person BEFORE they join. They have turned up and we let them stay rather than take this form complete and return it and we will let you know when you can start.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    But of course that is because people no longer use the 'joining forms' that ask lots of info.

    Instead Jonny comes along with his mate or if we are really lucky a parent and we get a name, address, phone number, date of birth and little else.

    We then complain when the census comes and we don't know what his ethnicity is or any of his possible disabilities. Or we find out on a camp that he suffers ADHD or something and that he is in fact Jewish so can only eat certain things.

    We all do it and don't get enough info about the person BEFORE they join. They have turned up and we let them stay rather than take this form complete and return it and we will let you know when you can start.

    Hmmm. Let me get this right. You are saying that there are sections or groups who accept children into their number without any contact details? That seems rather irresponsible to me. Surely they must have a minimum contact detail?

    When a parent drops a new member off with us, I insist that a parent is present and completes a registration form. I explain that I need someone to contact in case we break their child. They invariably laugh and fill out the form. On the odd time that a newbie has come along as a buddy, I make sure that the parent dropping the buddy off has parental contact details and I hand them a membership form, which I ask for back the following week. No form, no stay. That isn't just a Navs thing, I did it in Scouts as well.

    Only ever had one real issue with a parent refusing to sign the form. Her child didn't stay.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 14-05-2019 at 03:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Hmmm. Let me get this right. You are saying that there are sections or groups who accept children into their number without any contact details? That seems rather irresponsible to me. Surely they must have a minimum contact detail?

    When a parent drops a new member off with us, I insist that a parent is present and completes a registration form. I explain that I need someone to contact in case we break their child. They invariably laugh and fill out the form. On the odd time that a newbie has come along as a buddy, I make sure that the parent dropping the buddy off has parental contact details and I hand them a membership form, which I ask for back the following week. No form, no stay. That isn't just a Navs thing, I did it in Scouts as well.

    Only ever had one real issue with a parent refusing to sign the form. Her child didn't stay.

    No - as I said name, address, phone number, date of birth. -Minimal.

    I agree that the no form no stay etc but it doesn't always happen. And of course it depends for what you ask on the form and whether all that gets completed.

    I have seen it where a parent is told no form no activity and they stand there with a pen an quickly skim through it missing all sorts then you have to say what about the fact that they are vegetarian, or that they wet the bed etc.

    Parent: I didn't think I needed to tell you that again.......

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    No - as I said name, address, phone number, date of birth. -Minimal.

    I agree that the no form no stay etc but it doesn't always happen. And of course it depends for what you ask on the form and whether all that gets completed.

    I have seen it where a parent is told no form no activity and they stand there with a pen an quickly skim through it missing all sorts then you have to say what about the fact that they are vegetarian, or that they wet the bed etc.

    Parent: I didn't think I needed to tell you that again.......
    Yeah, got that tee shirt

    Worst was kid who was on meds that, if she missed for four days, could put her in critical condition in hospital. I only found out on day three of a week long camp when mum came to deliver the meds!
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    But of course that is because people no longer use the 'joining forms' that ask lots of info.
    We use joining forms that ask quite a lot of information. We don't ask for ethnicity, we don't need to know.
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    We also use joining forms which ask for all relvant information (we don't ask for ethnicity any more as we use OSM to collect this anonymously for the Census)

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

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    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  12. #27
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    I go completely the opposite way. I require a mobile number, date of birth and an email address on first drop off (email for emergencies, other two for OSM) then I set the kid up on OSM, and invite the parent to fill in everything else we need directly on OSM.

    It works nicely, and don't have to handle forms....

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    We use joining forms that ask quite a lot of information. We don't ask for ethnicity, we don't need to know.
    You don't need to know it until you want the numbers for Census (many groups fail to put this and just put prefer not to say when in reality they never asked), or if you are applying for a grant etc and again you guess it as you don't have it.

    I agree that much of the time you as a Leader don't need it but the Group MAY do.

  15. #29
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    I go completely the opposite way. I require a mobile number, date of birth and an email address on first drop off (email for emergencies, other two for OSM) then I set the kid up on OSM, and invite the parent to fill in everything else we need directly on OSM.

    It works nicely, and don't have to handle forms....
    So you don't need/want their medical details and know any additional needs in advance? I would go with your method apart from I would set them up on OSM and then email them and ask them to complete all the details on OSM before their first session, if you don't have the option of a paper form to collect this info from them at the time.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post

    We all do it and don't get enough info about the person BEFORE they join. They have turned up and we let them stay rather than take this form complete and return it and we will let you know when you can start.
    Bit of a sweeping statement!

    When we offer them a place in the group we ask them to fill in OSM via My Scout (we have info to set them up as they have a profile on the waiting list already)as part of the application process. They wouldn't any information about when/ where/ what until this happens and although its never happened, failure to do so would for-fit them their place.

    Certainly wouldn't be happy having someone onsite with a scribbled telephone number knowing nothing about them!
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