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Thread: Can you imagine?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post

    There are many who would agree with you and some troops which hang on for dear life to their Scouts until 14.5, however in the old days, and even for those troops which hold on to their scouts as long as possible, they tend to leave in much greater numbers before they transfer to the next section. In my Son's case he was utterly fed up of Scouts around his 14th birthday and left of his own accord and had to be persuaded to try explorers - which he loved, and stayed with for almost 3 years, in the venture days he would have left the movement, and many did likewise.
    My experience was the opposite, I managed to retain a high percentage of Scouts and often kept them through Ventures/ Explorers to age 18. I still have three with me as Leaders in Navs plus another three I can call on for specialist activities.
    Our oldest Navs just now are 15. We lost a group about 18 months ago due to the unexpected attitude of one individual, otherwise I am sure we would have retained maybe 25% of them as Leaders.

    I'll add that despite not being happy about the age range changes, our Group adopted Explorers a full 18 months before County and District made the change - our older Ventures became Leaders or Skills helpers.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Well, each unit recruits from allocated groups - although that's not rigid. So every troop will see a unit once a year or so which will a natural home in time if they want to move on. In venture days groups without units would generally find that there was nowhere to go as units were closely tied to their groups and district could do nothing about pushing units to spread recruitment. Of course, even now, there are districts where every unit is partnered and those without a partnered unit are frozen out.
    Put like that, Explorers here work exactly the same as Venture Scouts did, but where before, VS's went to camps etc together, Explorers don't.

    That's just here mind.

    The DESC tried, but found like the unit leadership, young people are just too busy these days.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I'm not sure that a 15 - 21 age range would work nowadays - there would be huge safeguarding concerns from the parents of younger members.
    Not to be outdone on the controversial thread stakes, let me throw this out there.

    Are the safeguarding issues as they currently stand, more a creation of the safe guarding rules that exist as opposed to actual real world risks? Talking specifically about the 15 to 18 age range?

    And, are we not held to the whim of whatever is popular on the day when it comes to the standards young people are being held to by adults who are making the rules for them?

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    Are the safeguarding issues as they currently stand, more a creation of the safe guarding rules that exist as opposed to actual real world risks? Talking specifically about the 15 to 18 age range?

    And, are we not held to the whim of whatever is popular on the day when it comes to the standards young people are being held to by adults who are making the rules for them?
    I suspect that there would be some concern, real or perceived of the parents of some 15 year olds in a Grouping that included 21 year olds.

    Are being held to the whim of whatever is popular on the day? Absolutely - that has always been the case, and always will be. There is an ongoing "narrowing" of acceptance.

    Apparently Japan is horrified, rightly so, of the murders this mornng. It is a society considered so safe that 6 year olds walk to school alone. A lifetime ago, my mum dropped me off at school on my first day. From day two I walked home with my new friends, unsupervised - a distance through an Essex town centre of just over a kilometre. I know of no 5 year olds who walk home on their own today. I had 17 year old Explorers who were not allowed to walk to or from the Scout Hut alone... changed times.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 28-05-2019 at 08:14 PM.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    There are many who would agree with you and some troops which hang on for dear life to their Scouts until 14.5...
    How do you do that, especially if there's a retention problem for older Scouts? We tell ours that they can go at any time from 13.5 to 14.5, and do all we can to make links to Explorers, but we still often find ourselves explaining to those approaching 14.5 that we can't keep them on, even though they'd like to do one more summer camp or whatever.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    How do you do that, especially if there's a retention problem for older Scouts? We tell ours that they can go at any time from 13.5 to 14.5, and do all we can to make links to Explorers, but we still often find ourselves explaining to those approaching 14.5 that we can't keep them on, even though they'd like to do one more summer camp or whatever.
    They tell them that can't go until 14.5 whether they want to go or not. What you do is what *should* happen and does in many troops, but some leaders genuinely care more about the troop than the needs of PL's and older Scouts

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    There are many who would agree with you and some troops which hang on for dear life to their Scouts until 14.5, however in the old days, and even for those troops which hold on to their scouts as long as possible, they tend to leave in much greater numbers before they transfer to the next section. In my Son's case he was utterly fed up of Scouts around his 14th birthday and left of his own accord and had to be persuaded to try explorers - which he loved, and stayed with for almost 3 years, in the venture days he would have left the movement, and many did likewise.
    Interestingly (or not), we lost (and still lose) far more in the transition from primary to high school (closer to age 12), than we ever did at age 14. Maybe in Scotland, the change in age ranges didn't suit because the of the way the kids progressed through school. (I think in England they progress a bit earlier?)

    I thought our cub leaders had made a mistake on OSM. The last in take from cubs - 3 out of 4 were well in to their eleventh year. I thought they've put the wrong year on the dob. I was miffed for about 4 seconds, but because we hold on to them at 14, it all works out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Interestingly (or not), we lost (and still lose) far more in the transition from primary to high school (closer to age 12), than we ever did at age 14. Maybe in Scotland, the change in age ranges didn't suit because the of the way the kids progressed through school. (I think in England they progress a bit earlier?)

    I thought our cub leaders had made a mistake on OSM. The last in take from cubs - 3 out of 4 were well in to their eleventh year. I thought they've put the wrong year on the dob. I was miffed for about 4 seconds, but because we hold on to them at 14, it all works out.
    Probably worth stepping out of individual anecdote. I have our county numbers by age, albeit 2 years old, not sure I can post here, but the drop between 10 and 18 is dramatic, is year on year pretty linear until 16 and then collapses. So however an individual troop might do, in the country they are leaving in droves during their time in the troop and generally the older they are then the more that leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Probably worth stepping out of individual anecdote. I have our county numbers by age, albeit 2 years old, not sure I can post here, but the drop between 10 and 18 is dramatic, is year on year pretty linear until 16 and then collapses. So however an individual troop might do, in the country they are leaving in droves during their time in the troop and generally the older they are then the more that leave.
    Hold on a sec though, the results in your district won't apply to the results in my district because the conditions are different. It's a false comparison because the UK is not a country - Scotland has a different education system to England, and I'd posit that this produces marked differences in how Scouting works.

    For example. Is it fair to say when they were thinking about the age range changes, they perhaps didn't account for Scottish kids moving up to high school closer to age 12 than to age 10?

    I'd also take comparisons between districts and/or counties with a pinch of salt (even those that are next door to each other) - especially when it comes to provision for over 14's. I'd suggest that there are huge variances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hold on a sec though, the results in your district won't apply to the results in my district because the conditions are different. It's a false comparison because the UK is not a country - Scotland has a different education system to England, and I'd posit that this produces marked differences in how Scouting works.

    For example. Is it fair to say when they were thinking about the age range changes, they perhaps didn't account for Scottish kids moving up to high school closer to age 12 than to age 10?

    I'd also take comparisons between districts and/or counties with a pinch of salt (even those that are next door to each other) - especially when it comes to provision for over 14's. I'd suggest that there are huge variances.
    As the county has 5% of the entire countries membership is say it's statically valid. And if there's any District in the country who has twice as many explorers in their district as beavers- which is the case if every Beaver stayed, let alone later joiners, they'd be lauded to the skies

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    As the county has 5% of the entire countries membership is say it's statically valid. And if there's any District in the country who has twice as many explorers in their district as beavers- which is the case if every Beaver stayed, let alone later joiners, they'd be lauded to the skies
    I'd say, if anything, that makes it less valid. It's still only statistically valid - for your county. It's certainly not statistically valid for mine, which is in another country and doesn't even have 1% of the UK's scouting membership in it.

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    Bit of thread cross over, but I don't think anyone has been able to say if any research was done into why kids were leaving when they were - so presumably there was an assumption about age ranges not mixing? They assumed because kids were leaving at 14, it was because they didn't want to mix with kids who were 10 or 11? And at the other end, there was the over/under 18 thing?

    We can't do anything about young adults leaving at 18(ish), that's university and high level educational policy - so outwith our control.

    So my new question is, is it right to segregate by age in the way we are? Instead of dealing with why a 15 yo doesn't want to be around a 10 yo, or the (apparent) issues around 16 yo's mixing with 19 yo's - we're now just not dealing with it?

    Does this not just feed the differences (if here are any) between 10 and 15 yo's or 15 and 18 yo's and make younger people even less prepared for the things they face as they grow up?

    Scouts used to be one of the few ways younger kids could spend meaningful supervised time with older kids, that is now severely limited. Like trust, do we now assume this is a bad thing which needs to be governed by stringent rules?

  15. #42
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    and if you look at Boy Scouts of America...their age range is 11 to 18. Their numbers are...not great, but I haven't seen any breakdowns of numbers by age. Some of our European cousins have similar age ranges to us, but most of their leaders are under 25.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    and if you look at Boy Scouts of America...their age range is 11 to 18. Their numbers are...not great, but I haven't seen any breakdowns of numbers by age. Some of our European cousins have similar age ranges to us, but most of their leaders are under 25.
    As I understand it, their sections meet together. We accommodated a troop from Redondo Beach, they said their Scout and Cub sections meet together but may do different activities. Their Cub section runs from 5 to 11. Scouts are 11 to 18.

    Numbers, again, I think are problematic. The BSA and TSA are similar but have some marked differences around membership criteria. Might also be worth noting, in the America, the have all sorts of different age limits for booze and all the rest of it. But, saying that, alcohol is a strict no-no for any age group in BSA. They were surprised when we offered them whisky. (The leaders, not the kids...)

    Looking at membership per head, I think (if my sums are right) per head of population the BSA membership figures are better than ours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    We can't do anything about young adults leaving at 18(ish), that's university and high level educational policy - so outwith our control.
    Er, not always so. Create an esprit de corps and you will retain post 18 year olds. There I go again
    Ewan Scott

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  18. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Er, not always so. Create an esprit de corps and you will retain post 18 year olds. There I go again
    Not sure there's much you can do if someone is leaving to study 50 or 100 miles away.

    They visit, but I'm not sure that's actually allowed.

    Edit* Unless you're suggesting a persuade them to forgo further education? /edit

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