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Thread: LGBT+ Awareness

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    Lightbulb LGBT+ Awareness

    As it's #PrideMonth and usually the start of many Prides up and down the UK (and the World), Scoutadelic has create an LGBT+ episode (split into two parts) as well as an amazing LGBT+ four part series talking to LGBT+ Scouters about their experiences.



    Also to go along with all this, we've also created an LGBT+ Awareness Badge, allowing sections and groups to openly discuss LGBT+ Topics and allow Scouts to know that Scouting is Inclusive for All, no matter who they turn into. It's an amazing month and topic for me, and very personal. I hope you like the resources and ideas behind it.

    61695755_818547298520472_3143260236345769984_n.jpg

    https://scoutadelic.com/new_site/sho...areness-badge/

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    I sometimes think, it would all be so much easier, if we didn't try to quantify with labels every aspect of the LGBT(etc) sphere. The LGBT community has to know (growing up as they did), that labels can be dangerously prescriptive - to have more seems problematic.

    Hmmm... Gender unicorns and the Genderbread person...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I sometimes think, it would all be so much easier, if we didn't try to quantify with labels every aspect of the LGBT(etc) sphere. The LGBT community has to know (growing up as they did), that labels can be dangerously prescriptive - to have more seems problematic.

    Hmmm... Gender unicorns and the Genderbread person...
    I wonder if that's generational. It does seem in general that Millennials are quite concerned with the idea of giving everything, be it an element of diversity, a disability, a medical condition or whatever, its correct label, whereas Gen-X (which I'm at the end of) preferred the idea of just dealing with what you see and not spending undue time putting it in a box.

    For instance, if I eat wheat I get ill - itchy, the trots, jittery and feel yuk. Therefore I don't. I could eat it again for 2 months and get a coeliac diagnosis, but what's the point? The treatment is not to eat wheat (etc). I don't need a bit of paper to work that out.

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    Agreed.

    Going to sound like a right old fart, but I think it's the internet. Back in the day (the 1980's), if you didn't know something, you mostly kept not knowing it. The internet has allowed us to know everything pretty much on tap, so perhaps that's why there is a perceived need to label everything these days. How else can it be presented easily and on demand via Google?

    The gay community already had a habit of labelling everything - mostly so people could identify - how should I say - suitable partners for various activities? It's all very practical. So in the lgbt community (as it is often referred to in the YouTube video), the internet probably turbo charged it. There used to be a handkerchief code. The colour, pattern and what pocket it hung out of denoted what your kink was, now there are emojis.

    I think it's called progress... I think...


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    If you are not aware of LGBT by now, you've been living either under a rock or Trumpville. The downside with all this labeling is that it is the minorities that get the flags and badges, and in a society that espouses diversity it stands to mark people out as 'different' . Your race, gender preference, religion, sexuality should be know one elses business but your own, it's your persona, your make up, your ideology, your identity, yourself, your life and no one elses. There is no LGBT community, just as there is no heterosexual community, white community, English community, or any other. Most of us are just people getting on with our lives, and the worst thing to drive people apart is to start waving flags around ( It got the British Empire in a whole lot of trouble, waving flags!) and denoting our differences. It may be the SJW roar of Diversity for All, but it rubs up against the more important Equality. I would rather concentrate on and celebrate what we have in common, rather than what is important for a very small minority with a political axe to grind
    It's also a tad rich for Scouting - which is a private entity, and certainly not open to all - to push their political agenda on its members.
    Last edited by bernwood; 09-06-2019 at 06:20 PM.

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    It used to be so simple - Not the marrying type of NAFF
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    Ok where to start:


    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I sometimes think, it would all be so much easier, if we didn't try to quantify with labels every aspect of the LGBT(etc) sphere. The LGBT community has to know (growing up as they did), that labels can be dangerously prescriptive - to have more seems problematic.

    We unfortunately don't live in a world where labels don't exist. We start life with a label - male or female, we grow up with various other labels being attached to us whether willingly or not so much. Gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. All these are labels, we live in a world that has such. We can't stop that. Labels don't damage the world, not understanding a label or making someone feel less of a person for being a female against being a male, or being white instead of black, or being gay instead of straight, is what is destructive or dangerous. I think that hopefully answers Neil's comments as well.




    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74
    Going to sound like a right old fart, but I think it's the internet. Back in the day (the 1980's), if you didn't know something, you mostly kept not knowing it. The internet has allowed us to know everything pretty much on tap, so perhaps that's why there is a perceived need to label everything these days. How else can it be presented easily and on demand via Google?


    The gay community already had a habit of labelling everything - mostly so people could identify - how should I say - suitable partners for various activities? It's all very practical. So in the lgbt community (as it is often referred to in the YouTube video), the internet probably turbo charged it. There used to be a handkerchief code. The colour, pattern and what pocket it hung out of denoted what your kink was, now there are emojis.

    This turned from being gay into what sexual preferences people are very quickly in a Scouting forum (which ARE two different things). Weird that. There are a LOT of weird stuff that straight people do with each other that needs no hankerchiefs, that I'm aware of, though there are a lot more emojis for that. Though, I suspect the wink emoji at the end isn't you flirting with me or the rest of this forum.


    Society labels everything, not just the "gay community" as you advise. But the LGBT+ community did use hankerchiefs yes to denote they were gay, what they preferred because in those days it was illegal and in some countries still is to be LGBT+. It was their quiet way of trying to find a date, or a guy or girl or someone to meet up with, without being arrested.


    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood
    If you are not aware of LGBT by now, you've been living either under a rock or Trumpville. The downside with all this labeling is that it is the minorities that get the flags and badges, and in a society that espouses diversity it stands to mark people out as 'different' . Your race, gender preference, religion, sexuality should be know one elses business but your own, it's your persona, your make up, your ideology, your identity, yourself, your life and no one elses. There is no LGBT community, just as there is no heterosexual community, white community, English community, or any other. Most of us are just people getting on with our lives, and the worst thing to drive people apart is to start waving flags around ( It got the British Empire in a whole lot of trouble, waving flags!) and denoting our differences. It may be the SJW roar of Diversity for All, but it rubs up against the more important Equality. I would rather concentrate on and celebrate what we have in common, rather than what is important for a very small minority with a political axe to grind
    It's also a tad rich for Scouting - which is a private entity, and certainly not open to all - to push their political agenda on its members.

    But we're all individuals. I am different from you, and we should celebrate every single person's individuality. We should tell people that it's okay to be different, not to hide that away. I grew up learning as a kid through fairytales and books that a man loves a woman, that's normal, that's what life is like. So being a confused child fancying other men, I felt wrong because I had never known about a man can love another man, or infact a woman can love another woman. I felt like there must be something wrong with me, and felt that for a while.


    I started Scouting and my GSL at the time believed that people would denote being gay as being a pedophile and such I would need to keep like you say my sexuality private, no one else's business. And it's true, it doesn't matter what "hankerchief" as pa_broon74 mentions, that's my own business. But I went back in the closet because I trusted her and believed in her advice.


    But children are growing up in a world where yes they have access to the internet, but is that were they should get their information or should we as a society promote awareness for all, Inclusivity for all, that Scouting is that. It is Inclusive for All, no matter gender (we accept girls), race (we don't worry what skin colour you have), religion (we accept all religions including those without), and sexual orientation (you can be whatever letter you wish to assign yourself). By promoting we're all different and that's okay means that a child today can grow up and not have to worry because he may fancy another boy, but feel that it's okay to because it is. He's just as normal as a straight white male is growing up. It doesn't matter. But we don't live in that world yet, we don't live in a world where a person who is in the LGBT+ community can walk down a street with their partner and be accepted. 1 in 5 LGBT+ people have been assaulted in the UK in the last 12 months because of their sexuality. 4 out of 5 LGBT+ people do not report this to the police, in fear and embarassment. Why should they live in a world were they're fearful and scared to hold the hand of a person they love, when a man can walk down a street holding the hand of a woman and nobody would dare beat or kick or verbally abuse them? If we lived in that world were it doesn't matter, then there would be no more need to make LGBT+ awareness at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    Going to sound like a right old fart, but I think it's the internet. Back in the day (the 1980's), if you didn't know something, you mostly kept not knowing it.
    I don't agree. Back then you could watch a good quality TV programme on a subject (including ones from the Open University) or you could go to your still open public library and find that they had a relevent book in stock or you could go to a newsagent and find that there was a good specialist magazine (not just mags about who is bonking whom). If all that failed you could also get on the CB radio and find some local knowledge (often better quality than most of the pap which is posted on the internet). Perhaps your memory is going
    Last edited by Kev; 10-06-2019 at 07:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I sometimes think, it would all be so much easier, if we didn't try to quantify with labels every aspect of the LGBT(etc) sphere. The LGBT community has to know (growing up as they did), that labels can be dangerously prescriptive - to have more seems problematic.

    Hmmm... Gender unicorns and the Genderbread person...
    A label is nothing more than a shortcut to explaining a complex situation. The key understanding just needs to be that we all have multiple labels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    There is no LGBT community, just as there is no heterosexual community, white community, English community, or any other.
    I'm sorry but there is a quite clear and well-established LGBT community, just as there is a clear Scouting community.
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    I don't agree. Back then you could watch a good quality TV programme on a subject (including ones from the Open University) or you could go to your still open public library and find that they had a relevent book in stock or you could go to a newsagent and find that there was a good specialist magazine (not just mags about who is bonking whom). If all that failed you could also get on the CB radio and find some local knowledge (often better quality than most of the pap which is posted on the internet). Perhaps your memory is going

    I don't agree. In the past you had to go and look for the information, find the campaigns etc.. Today, it is in your face, finding you, and almost anyone with a "cause" can start a campaign - there is even software available to help you do it. I'm involved in some social media development for work, and we are just scratching the surface of what can be done. If we discussed this on FB - we would be inundated with adverts and campaigning material from various causes. That never happened in the past. You had to sign up and ask for information.

    If you think about it, getting a message out to 1000 people on a mailing list used to incur the cost of printing, enveloped, packing envelopes and putting a stamp on them - It takes a fair time to fold and pack 1000 letters into 1000 envelopes. It had a cost. Today, you create the same letter and use a mailing package to send it out at no cost to the same 1000 people, (I think my mailing software allowed 5,000 free posts per month). So, the dynamics of information have changed beyond the comprehension that we had 25 years ago.

    People have instant "knowledge" of everything now - which of course is how we have gotten into this Brexit mess - The Brexiteers won the instant information campaign and most people didn't and still don't check the facts because they have been told on line, so it must be true... a good thing or a bad thing depending upon your aims and your point of view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I wonder if that's generational. It does seem in general that Millennials are quite concerned with the idea of giving everything, be it an element of diversity, a disability, a medical condition or whatever, its correct label, whereas Gen-X (which I'm at the end of) preferred the idea of just dealing with what you see and not spending undue time putting it in a box.

    For instance, if I eat wheat I get ill - itchy, the trots, jittery and feel yuk. Therefore I don't. I could eat it again for 2 months and get a coeliac diagnosis, but what's the point? The treatment is not to eat wheat (etc). I don't need a bit of paper to work that out.
    No. A label isn't "putting it in a box" but explaining a complex situation in an easy way. We use all use labels every day; these are just different because they're not labels you understand or things you think should exist as labels. That is a very different situation to the one you purport to be the truth.

    The other benefit of a "label" is that it helps people feel connected; part of a community, and that their feelings are normal. We are creating new labels because we are realising new things about ourselves and not being constrained by traditional social restrictions on how people "should" behave.

    So, please learn and understand that just because it's a new label to you does not mean it is putting it in a box; we all wear multiple labels that reflect many different parts of our personalities and opinions - indeed, being a Scout is in itself wearing a label...
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutadelic View Post
    We unfortunately don't live in a world where labels don't exist. We start life with a label - male or female, we grow up with various other labels being attached to us whether willingly or not so much. Gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. All these are labels, we live in a world that has such. We can't stop that. Labels don't damage the world, not understanding a label or making someone feel less of a person for being a female against being a male, or being white instead of black, or being gay instead of straight, is what is destructive or dangerous. I think that hopefully answers Neil's comments as well.
    It doesn't, I'm afraid; certain labels are unavoidable, but my point was that it appears to be generational as to whether people actively seek to place or have placed further labels than happen by default.

    I see your point that specific ones shouldn't be seen as negative, and agree with it (to a point; some clearly should be e.g. being very right wing politically, being racist/sexist/homophobic etc). But my point is that it is not of benefit to seek placement of labels - or rather it seems my generation didn't think like that. That is, one might be a person who happens to be gay, but not a "gay person" as the key identifier of identity.

    And surely when it comes to LGBT.... that's the ideal? That being gay is totally normal and thus not even remarkable other than to the extent required to find a partner? No label needed, because you're just a person who just happens to be gay, trans, black, white, Asian, Muslim, Christian, whatever?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The other benefit of a "label" is that it helps people feel connected; part of a community, and that their feelings are normal. We are creating new labels because we are realising new things about ourselves and not being constrained by traditional social restrictions on how people "should" behave.
    But surely a label is constraining how you "should" behave? Without one, you behave as you see fit within the law of the land?

    Even the "classic" one does that - "boys should be boys, girls should be girls"? Why? They are just people who have their own individual views, wants and approaches.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    I'm sorry but there is a quite clear and well-established LGBT community, just as there is a clear Scouting community.
    There is, but interestingly it seems to be diminishing in extent as being gay is becoming more accepted into society. This poses its own challenges (e.g. for people who want to meet other gay people without using Grindr and the likes) but gay venues are closing because there's simply less call for them than there was.

    The ultimate aim is surely that gay people can feel as comfortable as straight people in any venue (other than the constraint above).

    There are notably also counter-examples...the only decent nightclub in MK is a gay venue and while the security staff are very big on dealing with any homophobia it is very much open to and visited by all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    But surely a label is constraining how you "should" behave? Without one, you behave as you see fit within the law of the land?

    Even the "classic" one does that - "boys should be boys, girls should be girls"? Why? They are just people who have their own individual views, wants and approaches.
    You're applying an only-fashioned view of labels. You're seeing them as a single box, not as a series of ways to describe their lived experiences in shorthand. We all have multiple labels, and you simply cannot take one on its own.


    There are notably also counter-examples...the only decent nightclub in MK is a gay venue and while the security staff are very big on dealing with any homophobia it is very much open to and visited by all.
    That's just because the LGBT community is open to all, so long as you treat our space with respect. Allies are a key part of the LGBT community; they may not be "one of us", but they are part of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutadelic View Post
    Ok where to start:

    We unfortunately don't live in a world where labels don't exist. We start life with a label - male or female, we grow up with various other labels being attached to us whether willingly or not so much. Gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. All these are labels, we live in a world that has such. We can't stop that. Labels don't damage the world, not understanding a label or making someone feel less of a person for being a female against being a male, or being white instead of black, or being gay instead of straight, is what is destructive or dangerous. I think that hopefully answers Neil's comments as well.

    This turned from being gay into what sexual preferences people are very quickly in a Scouting forum (which ARE two different things). Weird that. There are a LOT of weird stuff that straight people do with each other that needs no hankerchiefs, that I'm aware of, though there are a lot more emojis for that. Though, I suspect the wink emoji at the end isn't you flirting with me or the rest of this forum.

    Society labels everything, not just the "gay community" as you advise. But the LGBT+ community did use hankerchiefs yes to denote they were gay, what they preferred because in those days it was illegal and in some countries still is to be LGBT+. It was their quiet way of trying to find a date, or a guy or girl or someone to meet up with, without being arrested.
    Thanks for the lecture. (Which ironically, is part of the problem when it comes to wider acceptance, patronising people is not going to win them over.)

    Unfortunately - it seems to me anyway - as far as society, (as it currently stands), goes, this exercise in labeling everything is used as a pretense of understanding. Instead of actually sitting down and getting each other, we settle for a pigeon hole. A lot of people claim tolerance because they know the labels, and a lot of people who are pushing the labels are basically saying 'here are the labels, you will accept them'. Meaningful understanding is optional while resentment at being told what to think rises.

    I think back to the mid 80's when I was starting high school and wonder if there wasn't the gay label - on to which my peers could attach all their negativity, if I might have felt a wee bit more comfortable being honest about myself. Instead, the common perception was of overly camp men in arseless chaps (or spandex) prancing down high streets. That literally was the only popular imagery of the LGBT community - that and those ****** awful public health adverts about HIV/AIDS... So yeah, as labels go, not great.

    It's much better now, but these labels that were meant to set people free (I feel), also put them into boxes - and crucially (I feel, again) instead of encouraging people to understand, just puts a sticking plaster on their (at best) passively gentle, default intolerances.

    I used to know a guy who was in the RAF. He got bounced out of it because he was openly gay. He always used to say he longed for the day when no one ever needed to come out (an exercise in self-labeling). You should just be able to grow up and be yourself. He said making a big announcement of the thing you wanted to be accepted for, was totally counter intuitive. I tend to agree.

    For clarity, it's not just about not having the labels, it's about society as a whole also not caring about any of it. Two of my Explorers were gay (pretty sure they still are, they're at university now). Neither came out, and no one batted an eyelid - folks just knew and didn't care one way or the other. (That might be the one useful thing I've ever done as a Scout Leader...)

    I don't agree with everything bernwood said, but he's right about labels. An unfortunate side effect is, that they do highlight the differences between people - you can't have a label and not have the concomitant baggage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    A label is nothing more than a shortcut to explaining a complex situation. The key understanding just needs to be that we all have multiple labels.
    Yup. But that's the problem - it is a short cut and you'll know yourself - people are lazy. I totally agree with what you said about labels. Unfortunately, for most people, they are the destination and not a way point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    I don't agree. Back then you could watch a good quality TV programme on a subject (including ones from the Open University) or you could go to your still open public library and find that they had a relevent book in stock or you could go to a newsagent and find that there was a good specialist magazine (not just mags about who is bonking whom). If all that failed you could also get on the CB radio and find some local knowledge (often better quality than most of the pap which is posted on the internet). Perhaps your memory is going
    Yeah...

    I really don't remember seeing in any of those places, what a 12 year old could do about not really understanding why all his pals were trying to look up girls skirts. I mean, how do you ask a librarian for that book? What TV program was that on. Can't believe I'm going to admit this, but I used to watch OU programs as a kid - they didn't cover that stuff. I remember when the local newsagent sold those magazines - they didn't sell those types of magazines though, and certainly not to 13 year old boys.

    In the context of this thread, you're talking mince. If it was about dinosaurs or physics though, (which isn't what this thread is about), then you have a point.

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