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Thread: LGBT+ Awareness

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    In the context of this thread, you're talking mince. If it was about dinosaurs or physics though, (which isn't what this thread is about), then you have a point.
    Fair enough, I'll shut up.

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post


    Yup. But that's the problem - it is a short cut and you'll know yourself - people are lazy. I totally agree with what you said about labels. Unfortunately, for most people, they are the destination and not a way point.
    I agree, but that doesn't remove a need for labels and that the benefits that they still have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Fair enough, I'll shut up.
    Sorry if that came across as ummm, cross.

    It's one of the very few things I feel strongly about. I hate to sound mawkish, I'm an adult now and really don't care what people say to or about me, but as a kid - it can be so incredibly undermining. I remember it being even worse because my pals didn't even know how horrible they were being, it made what they were saying feel even worse - it was all being done with such casual disdain. Weirdly, at least if they meant it, it would mean something to someone... Probably doesn't make any sense, but there it is.

    I'd hate for any kids to go through the same thing, it wasn't very nice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    I agree, but that doesn't remove a need for labels and that the benefits that they still have.
    Agreed. I think that's where the video above comes in. Most folk just get hung up on the label, they need to watch the rest of the video to get the nuance. It's a microcosm of folk reading the headlines but not the articles.

    I wonder what you think about this question?

    Trans people are going through a similar exercise currently to what gay folk went through over the past three decades, (say past three decades because that was me essentially growing up to where I am now.) Wider society and the gay community and all it entails worked hard to get to where we are now - it didn't happen overnight - I think it's fair to say things are a lot better than they were.

    The trans issue is slightly different, but my question is; do you think there's any thing that can be done differently for them to quicken the pace of acceptance?

    And, as an addendum - the LGBT and all the other letters, is such a broad church, in some regards - I feel they challenges are all being lumped together, even although they're actually quite different in nature - is that a good idea? So long as we're having all these different labels, is it not fair to suggest that what works for some, may not work for others, so slightly different compromises might need to be made?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    It's one of the very few things I feel strongly about. I hate to sound mawkish, I'm an adult now and really don't care what people say to or about me, but as a kid - it can be so incredibly undermining. I remember it being even worse because my pals didn't even know how horrible they were being, it made what they were saying feel even worse - it was all being done with such casual disdain. Weirdly, at least if they meant it, it would mean something to someone... Probably doesn't make any sense, but there it is.

    I'd hate for any kids to go through the same thing, it wasn't very nice.
    Hey I was there but it was about me wearing specs or being good at both academic and practical subjects or not being good at making friends or whatever the **** it was about!

    As to labels, I don't like the way it appears you are supposed to choose one. It's like you are not allowed to be heterosexual but feel a bit 'girlie', you have to decide to whether to wear drag or have a sex change (or conform as a stereotypical heterosexual man).
    Last edited by Kev; 10-06-2019 at 02:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    Agreed. I think that's where the video above comes in. Most folk just get hung up on the label, they need to watch the rest of the video to get the nuance. It's a microcosm of folk reading the headlines but not the articles.

    I wonder what you think about this question?

    Trans people are going through a similar exercise currently to what gay folk went through over the past three decades, (say past three decades because that was me essentially growing up to where I am now.) Wider society and the gay community and all it entails worked hard to get to where we are now - it didn't happen overnight - I think it's fair to say things are a lot better than they were.

    The trans issue is slightly different, but my question is; do you think there's any thing that can be done differently for them to quicken the pace of acceptance?

    And, as an addendum - the LGBT and all the other letters, is such a broad church, in some regards - I feel they challenges are all being lumped together, even although they're actually quite different in nature - is that a good idea? So long as we're having all these different labels, is it not fair to suggest that what works for some, may not work for others, so slightly different compromises might need to be made?
    Acceptance is a thing that just takes time - the key is to make the law equal, and then it requires a societal shift. I don't think there is a way to speed it up, unfortunately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Hey I was there but it was about me wearing specs or being good at both academic and practical subjects or not being good at making friends or whatever the **** it was about!

    As to labels, I don't like the way it appears you are supposed to choose one. It's like you are not allowed to be heterosexual but feel a bit 'girlie', you have to decide to whether to wear drag or have a sex change (or conform as a stereotypical heterosexual man).
    Indeed.

    It's a proper minefield. Apparently the Spice Girls were playing at Murrayfield at the weekend there. More than one person has asked if I was going.

    (I'm not keen on the Spice Girls, but apparently my assumed demographic is...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Indeed.

    It's a proper minefield. Apparently the Spice Girls were playing at Murrayfield at the weekend there. More than one person has asked if I was going.

    (I'm not keen on the Spice Girls, but apparently my assumed demographic is...)
    You are talking to a guy who went to see Jason Donovan!

    You are making me think now. Perhaps all that stick I got at my (all boy) school was for not being 'blokey' enough.
    Last edited by Kev; 10-06-2019 at 02:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    You are talking to a guy who went to see Jason Donovan!

    You are making me think now. Perhaps all that stick I got at my (all boy) school was for not being 'blokey' enough.
    Heh!

    I think it's fair to say, the eighties/early nineties were a confusing and conflicting time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I think it's fair to say, the eighties/early nineties were a confusing and conflicting time.
    I think it's fair to say, now is also a confusing and conflicting time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    I think it's fair to say, now is also a confusing and conflicting time.
    I think in the context of this thread, it isn't quite so much so - but only barely.

    In fact, scratch that. With all these new labels, while things are more tolerant, it's probably even more confusing.

    Apparently, if I refused to lay down with someone who identified as a man, but had lady bits, to some, that would make me a terrible bigot.

    So yeah, you're right. A lot of people these days don't know if they're coming or going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    In fact, scratch that. With all these new labels, while things are more tolerant, it's probably even more confusing.
    It would be nice if we could all be protected for who we think that we are (assuming it is legal) instead of having to choose a label to get protected for or to have to campaign for our chosen unprotected label to get added to the list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    It would be nice if we could all be protected for who we think that we are (assuming it is legal) instead of having to choose a label to get protected for or to have to campaign for our chosen unprotected label to get added to the list.
    Yup.

    I think this is the dichotomy that the label brigade don't really understand. At some point, you get to the stage where everyone needs to be respected, and having labels in those circumstances becomes counter productive, because people get missed out and labels begin to infringe on each other's interests.

    The current trans/feminist thing is a case in point. There needs to be compromise with that.

    Absolutism is the enemy of compromise... Or something...


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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    The current trans/feminist thing is a case in point. There needs to be compromise with that.
    You mean the toilet/changing room one? We need to move to unisex rooms of cubicles/sinks and a separate urinal room for those who wish to use that if the capacity is needed (if it isn't, just put a urinal on the wall in each room as well as the toilet and you can still save water by just using the one of the two "facilities" in the room relating to the user's requirement). Most LGBT+ venues seem to have gone that way already, and offices commonly do, too. Similarly, changing rooms should be unisex, with floor to ceiling locking cubicles off a main room containing lockers. That solves it completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    You mean the toilet/changing room one? We need to move to unisex rooms of cubicles/sinks and a separate urinal room for those who wish to use that if the capacity is needed (if it isn't, just put a urinal on the wall in each room as well as the toilet and you can still save water by just using the one of the two "facilities" in the room relating to the user's requirement). Most LGBT+ venues seem to have gone that way already, and offices commonly do, too. Similarly, changing rooms should be unisex, with floor to ceiling locking cubicles off a main room containing lockers. That solves it completely.
    I was more thinking of women only spaces, and this weird situation where Lesbians (in particular, strange that for gay males it never seems to be an issue) and their distinctive needs/wants are essentially being erased from existence.

    Also, I'm not sure having the unisex arrangements you describe is suitable in all circumstances. I think it underplays the intimidation some women feel around some men in those those circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Also, I'm not sure having the unisex arrangements you describe is suitable in all circumstances. I think it underplays the intimidation some women feel around some men in those those circumstances.
    It is better if the shared washbasin space doesn't have an outer door, just an opening, or if there is no shared space - the cubicles open straight into a public area.

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