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Thread: LGBT+ Awareness

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    It is better if the shared washbasin space doesn't have an outer door, just an opening, or if there is no shared space - the cubicles open straight into a public area.
    Agreed.

    I think the wider issue is, we're making assumptions about these arrangements, but we're not female. And I suppose, since our group is currently looking to upgrade our bathroom facilities, it's quite easy to make assumptions about how we'd do it for our membership - but - we also hire our hall out, so we probably need to think about those people too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    It is better if the shared washbasin space doesn't have an outer door, just an opening, or if there is no shared space - the cubicles open straight into a public area.
    For offices the best is probably to have say 3 or 4 facilities similar to disabled toilets (i.e. fully self contained) but without the extra kit those require and in a smaller room, plus the actual disabled cubicle, and maybe a urinal room if demand is high.

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    I suspect there may also be an issue around usage looking at it from a lady's pov.

    Our offices have fully enclosed cubicles but are segregated into male and female rooms. The male toilets (in an office filled with seemingly middle class, white collar NHS workers), is at times utterly disgusting. You are left wondering at the upbringing of some men.

    If I'm disgusted by it, no woman is going to be accepting of it. I think the female pov is missing in most of these chats, which I think is indicative of the wider challenges around the issue of shared spaces. It's always men and the trans lobby (often trans-women) who want this in place. Meanwhile women are shut out and called terfs and bigots for even voicing concerns.

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    I remember clubbing in the 1980s when frequently you would be stood in the gents at a urinal and girls would walk past to use a cubicle. I was told they did this not because of the queue but because the ladies toilets were so disgusting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    The male toilets (in an office filled with seemingly middle class, white collar NHS workers), is at times utterly disgusting. You are left wondering at the upbringing of some men.
    In my limited experience, ladies toilets are just as, if not more skank. All the skidmarks and floaters of the mens, plus bonus knackered/empty makeup containers and very unsanitary used sanitary products. Less pee on the floor right enough. Usually.
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    Do you not see what's happening here though?

    We're all guys discussing this, that is pretty much the problem with it. It doesn't matter what anecdotal information we might have, it shouldn't be up to us. It should be up to women, and I mean that in the biological sense.

    (I would also suggest any toilet in a nightclub is going to be an outlier.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Do you not see what's happening here though?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    We're all guys discussing this, that is pretty much the problem with it. It doesn't matter what anecdotal information we might have, it shouldn't be up to us. It should be up to women, and I mean that in the biological sense.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    (I would also suggest any toilet in a campsite full of teenagers is going to be an outlier.)
    There, fixed that for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    There, fixed that for you.
    I was going to make that comparison. But thought it would be unfair to compare a nightclub toilet to that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    In my limited experience, ladies toilets are just as, if not more skank. All the skidmarks and floaters of the mens, plus bonus knackered/empty makeup containers and very unsanitary used sanitary products. Less pee on the floor right enough. Usually.
    FWIW, wee on the floor in gents' toilets shouldn't really happen because there are urinals. But people liking privacy tend to use cubicles. It used to be the case that urinals were provided with adequate privacy screening - that needs to return and I reckon the issue would reduce. Would save water too, now most urinals are waterless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    If I'm disgusted by it, no woman is going to be accepting of it. I think the female pov is missing in most of these chats, which I think is indicative of the wider challenges around the issue of shared spaces. It's always men and the trans lobby (often trans-women) who want this in place. Meanwhile women are shut out and called terfs and bigots for even voicing concerns.
    I think the concern about "fake trans" is a valid one, but there is also a fair bit of transphobia there too.

    What's perhaps more concerning is that enough women are (genuinely) scared of men in such settings that they'd rather have a lengthy queue for the ladies' than have a larger shared space where they'd also be able to use the many empty cubicles in the gents (other than in the morning when they tend to be busy). Surely that needs to be addressed.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 12-06-2019 at 05:06 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Do you not see what's happening here though?

    We're all guys discussing this, that is pretty much the problem with it. It doesn't matter what anecdotal information we might have, it shouldn't be up to us. It should be up to women, and I mean that in the biological sense.

    (I would also suggest any toilet in a nightclub is going to be an outlier.)
    Why should it be "up to women"? Particularly in the "biological sense"? Decisions like this need to be made by everyone. Yes, we here are not representative, but we are also not making decisions just discussing an identified issue (as part of thread creep).

    What is clear is that we do need to have more unisex/gender neutral facilities, not least to accommodate trans and non-binary people. Whether that needs to be in addition to or instead of single-gender facilities is the wider conversation.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Why should it be "up to women"? Particularly in the "biological sense"? Decisions like this need to be made by everyone. Yes, we here are not representative, but we are also not making decisions just discussing an identified issue (as part of thread creep).

    What is clear is that we do need to have more unisex/gender neutral facilities, not least to accommodate trans and non-binary people. Whether that needs to be in addition to or instead of single-gender facilities is the wider conversation.
    In the context of women's space, it absolutely should be up to women, in the biological sense - because it's their space. Given the history of women's oppression, suggesting that men (in what ever form) should have a say on women's space, is a huge erosion of their hard-won rights.

    I'd agree with you, there does need to be a third way, that's where the compromise will lie.

    And it's not thread creep, since we're now lumping all of this stuff together in the same family of labels - which presents some very serious (life changing issues) for young people who are at their most vulnerable. I was going to say that would be thread creep, but actually it's not - it's such a wide-ranging issues

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I think the concern about "fake trans" is a valid one, but there is also a fair bit of transphobia there too.

    What's perhaps more concerning is that enough women are (genuinely) scared of men in such settings that they'd rather have a lengthy queue for the ladies' than have a larger shared space where they'd also be able to use the many empty cubicles in the gents (other than in the morning when they tend to be busy). Surely that needs to be addressed.
    The problem with transphobia, is its being attributed to any opposition to encroachment on women's spaces.

    I've never been a victim of homophobia, beyond the usual words, and the passive stuff that gets bandied about. That's still homophobia. To me - as an adult - true homophobia is more than that, it's violence or systematic intolerance and inequality. For young people growing up, I'd go a lot further - it is literally anything at all that puts homosexuality down.

    I think as adults, we have a responsibility to not be so quick to take offence, and understand (for want of a better way of putting it), that people can be dicks. Kids absolutely need to be protected from those arseholes - in every case. Adults? Hmmm... It needs to be challenged, but a sense of perspective needs to be maintained. Is what I think.

    So, what I mean is a lot of the stuff that's being labeled transphobic isn't.

    For example - as a comparison - if I went out and chatted up some guy who turned out to be straight, him telling me he wasn't interested - would be homophobic if we follow transphobic reasoning. That's the place trans-activists (including orgs like Stonewall) have taken us too. This is exactly what they're saying to young lesbians if they rebuff the advances of a male bodied transwoman.

    Not even sure if that is the correct terminology - indeed, that might even be transphobic. There will be those who'd say I was transphobic. But since I'm an adult, I'm not going to be too offended, because the context is unreasonably febrile, so what would be the point?

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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    In the context of women's space, it absolutely should be up to women, in the biological sense - because it's their space. Given the history of women's oppression, suggesting that men (in what ever form) should have a say on women's space, is a huge erosion of their hard-won rights.

    I'd agree with you, there does need to be a third way, that's where the compromise will lie.

    And it's not thread creep, since we're now lumping all of this stuff together in the same family of labels - which presents some very serious (life changing issues) for young people who are at their most vulnerable. I was going to say that would be thread creep, but actually it's not - it's such a wide-ranging issues
    I 100% disgaree. Transwomen are women.
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    I must live in a world of my own where people are more accepting of others. I don't know, I don't have any particular gender issues, but... experience tells me that if people come into my life who have alternate gender choices, then that is absolutely fine.

    A long time and a life ago, I was dealing with a sales rep for a sanitary service who dealt with the removal of waste from the female toilets. She was well dressed and attractive, and we sat in the bar and chatted about the contract. One of the staff intervened and called me over on another matter, I thought. She sniggered, "You do realise that she is a he?" I hadn't, but when I went back to the meeting I spotted the Adam's Apple. It didn't bother me in the slightest. I wasn't going to jump into bed and get a huge surprise!

    Over the years similar situations have arisen and it has never caused me the slightest bit of concern, I struggle to understand why apparently it is a concern to others. People are what people are.

    What does irritate me, is when, because I am not bothered, people get in my face and tell me I should be bothered, one way or another. I don't get uptight because my neighbour likes to decorate his/ her house a different way, nor do I wave flags and parade in support of him for having a neater garden (no metaphor intended).

    There is huge irony in some of the posts in this thread.
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  17. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    I 100% disgaree. Transwomen are women.
    You must, however, at least acknowledge the possible issue raised by this, namely of male sexual predators (who are not actually trans) misusing this fact to gain them access to female changing and toilet facilities, and how women (both trans and non-trans) might be scared about this?

    It's a bit of a conflict, really, as it's not possible to "fix" both of these issues.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    For example - as a comparison - if I went out and chatted up some guy who turned out to be straight, him telling me he wasn't interested - would be homophobic if we follow transphobic reasoning. That's the place trans-activists (including orgs like Stonewall) have taken us too. This is exactly what they're saying to young lesbians if they rebuff the advances of a male bodied transwoman.
    And that in itself is another interesting conflict, as you're physically attracted to who you are physically attracted to, and you have no choice in the matter. I might only be attracted to blondes, or brunettes, or skinny people, or fat people, or black people, or white people, or Asian people or whatever - or maybe I'm attracted to all of them! I can't change that, and I'm not racist/transphobic/whatever as a result, any more than I can change if I am attracted to men or women or both.

    And then there's also that I might, in choosing a partner, be set on having kids (rather than adopting/fostering)...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    A long time and a life ago, I was dealing with a sales rep for a sanitary service who dealt with the removal of waste from the female toilets. She was well dressed and attractive, and we sat in the bar and chatted about the contract. One of the staff intervened and called me over on another matter, I thought. She sniggered, "You do realise that she is a he?" I hadn't, but when I went back to the meeting I spotted the Adam's Apple. It didn't bother me in the slightest. I wasn't going to jump into bed and get a huge surprise!
    I think my response to that would be along the lines of "yeah, and?", or "so?", or "what's that got to do with me?"

    But that's a bit different to the genuine (and to some extent justified) fear some women have of men encroaching onto spaces like female toilets and changing rooms. How we address that fear is a big issue for society. I don't like the idea that as a potentially quite physically threatening-looking male I might be perceived as a threat by a female on the street at night when I'm actually not, indeed I might be of help to them if someone else tried something (it's a bit like this idea that any lone male approaching a kid is automatically a paedophile up to no good). How do we fix that? If we can, the issue with unisex facilities reduces, surely?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    In my limited experience, ladies toilets are just as, if not more skank. All the skidmarks and floaters of the mens, plus bonus knackered/empty makeup containers and very unsanitary used sanitary products. Less pee on the floor right enough. Usually.
    Not to mention that it does seem to be a female thing to "hover" because they think they'll catch something off the seat. Well, being a bit rough about it (because why not), I've sat my backside on plenty of "foreign" bogs in various states over the years (some of the less pleasant ones on Scout campsites) and have never caught anything by doing so. But if people are that bothered maybe some Asian style toilets need providing so those who don't like to touch the porcelain can avoid it? "Hovering" or squatting on the seat does just result in a mess everywhere.

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