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Thread: LGBT+ Awareness

  1. #46
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    You must, however, at least acknowledge the possible issue raised by this, namely of male sexual predators (who are not actually trans) misusing this fact to gain them access to female changing and toilet facilities, and how women (both trans and non-trans) might be scared about this?

    It's a bit of a conflict, really, as it's not possible to "fix" both of these issues.
    Considering that trans* people will use the facilities which are relevant to the gender which they are presenting as - so if they are going through transition but not yet "out" in work, they'll use the men's restrooms there but the female ones in other circumstances where they are presenting as female, so this is no more of a threat than men entering the female changing rooms o perv - it's not like there's a genitals scanner on the door.

    Using this argument to prevent trans* people using the correct facilities is nothing more than a straw man to defend transphobism.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post

    But that's a bit different to the genuine (and to some extent justified) fear some women have of men encroaching onto spaces like female toilets and changing rooms. How we address that fear is a big issue for society. I don't like the idea that as a potentially quite physically threatening-looking male I might be perceived as a threat by a female on the street at night when I'm actually not, indeed I might be of help to them if someone else tried something (it's a bit like this idea that any lone male approaching a kid is automatically a paedophile up to no good). How do we fix that? If we can, the issue with unisex facilities reduces, surely?

    To be honest, I have no idea how, in reality, this can be fixed. If it is about perceived risk/ fear, then how do you adjust peoples' perceptions? If it is about real threat/ risk, I can't see what you can do other than be more vigilant. For the third time this week, I have to say, no-one can be all things to all men ( women - and all points in between and either side).
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    I too could not give a hoot about how people want to be. Other people's gender has never interested me in slightest. My own gender us my own afair too.

    But listening to the complexity of the debate, it does sound like there are no real clear devides any more. The old Male/Female devide no longer holds. So the idea of a shared semi-private space for "Men" or for "Women" (i.e the bit of the toilet where we stand to wash our hands) is a difficult thing.

    It will probably take some time for people to get used to the idea, but I think we will end up with open spaces for handwashing and closed, individual spaces, for the toilet. Maybe with a separate "urinal" room for those with the physical equipement to use them.

    The price that will be paid for this change will be the loss of the shared private space currently favoured by some women.

    Personally I very much welcome such a change, as I have always found the share private space in the mens toilet and intimidating place (and it has nothing to do with my gender - I am just don't like share private male spaces).

    My daughter's high school has adopted this model and it appears to work reasonably well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    I 100% disgaree. Transwomen are women.
    I don't believe it's as simple as that, and it's this absolutism and dismissal of nuance which is causing many of the issues for people on all sides of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Considering that trans* people will use the facilities which are relevant to the gender which they are presenting as - so if they are going through transition but not yet "out" in work, they'll use the men's restrooms there but the female ones in other circumstances where they are presenting as female, so this is no more of a threat than men entering the female changing rooms o perv - it's not like there's a genitals scanner on the door.

    Using this argument to prevent trans* people using the correct facilities is nothing more than a straw man to defend transphobism.
    tran.jpg

    Imagine putting that sign up in a hall which is used by Scouts. This is the expectation from the trans-lobby, in all it's forms - but not necessarily all trans-people.

    And none of the above is actually the case, it's just what Chris thinks is the case.

    For clarity. I have no skin in this fight, I'm not a female and I'm not trans. While I have a right to an opinion - and to voice it, I have absolutely no automatic right to expect it to form the basis of actual policy.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    tran.jpg

    Imagine putting that sign up in a hall which is used by Scouts. This is the expectation from the trans-lobby, in all it's forms - but not necessarily all trans-people.

    And none of the above is actually the case, it's just what Chris thinks is the case.

    For clarity. I have no skin in this fight, I'm not a female and I'm not trans. While I have a right to an opinion - and to voice it, I have absolutely no automatic right to expect it to form the basis of actual policy.
    This would be far better...

    All-Gender-Restroom-Sign.gif
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post

    My daughter's high school has adopted this model and it appears to work reasonably well.
    This line is key.

    That's how long it's taken for gay folk to gain acceptance, it didn't happen overnight, which is the expectation of the trans-lobby. The two campaigns (if we can refer to them as such) however, are not the same. Gay people (with the possible exception of marriage, sort of) were not encroaching on any one elses physical space, there was no physical territorial aspect to what we were looking for - we were only trying to change perceptions.

    Trans folk have got a bigger battle, changing perceptions and physical arrangements in the real world.

    So, that line is key. When I was growing up, I didn't know any gay adults - not one. All of my Scouts, (this is only recent) now know, Explorers always knew. So they at least have/had someone to look to. Not just the Explorers who were gay, but more importantly, those who weren't. They had a completely boring run-of-the-mill role model that totally normalised being gay. I never go on gay pride marches, never wear spangly clothes and god knows I'm not bubbly - I just draw breath and stand there.

    Kids see and grow up with it. Their minds won't ever need changed because they'll already be used to it. The same will happen in time with trans-folk.

    Unfortunately, just as many folk my age missed our formative years in the 80's/90's, there will be many trans people my age who will also have missed their. It's too late for them, just as it was for folk like me - you don't always get what you want, suck it up. They now need to put themselves out there as role models for ALL kids now, so it becomes normal, but do it quietly and do it implacably.

    Build the mixed bogs - but do it with the needs of all parties considered. We shouldn't be shouting down an already much oppressed demographic, all that'll do is build resentment, and it'll be the young trans-folk growing up that'll pay the price for it.

    Is what I think.

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Considering that trans* people will use the facilities which are relevant to the gender which they are presenting as - so if they are going through transition but not yet "out" in work, they'll use the men's restrooms there but the female ones in other circumstances where they are presenting as female, so this is no more of a threat than men entering the female changing rooms o perv - it's not like there's a genitals scanner on the door.

    Using this argument to prevent trans* people using the correct facilities is nothing more than a straw man to defend transphobism.
    And failing to even recognise the issue (with shared facilities and/or making it easier for someone who might seem male to enter female spaces) and why it exists is misogynistic, and ignoring it is to defend misogyny. Which is it to be?

    (This is a little bit like the liberal paradox - that I as a liberal defend your right to say that I should not be a liberal - it's also similar to the fact that it is not possible to be fully accepting of all (more Orthodox) forms of Islam without accepting some degree of sexism)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Build the mixed bogs - but do it with the needs of all parties considered. We shouldn't be shouting down an already much oppressed demographic, all that'll do is build resentment, and it'll be the young trans-folk growing up that'll pay the price for it.

    And that is probably the nub of it. If the mixed bogs have floor to ceiling cubicles directly opening onto the corridor (so there's no shared "this is the bogs" space) each containing its own bog and sink, plus a room of urinals (because that makes best use of space and water), there's little chance of an issue. Other than the lack of facilities (there are never enough) I've not heard of people complaining about this approach being used in Costabucks etc.

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  11. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    And failing to even recognise the issue (with shared facilities and/or making it easier for someone who might seem male to enter female spaces) and why it exists is misogynistic, and ignoring it is to defend misogyny. Which is it to be?

    (This is a little bit like the liberal paradox - that I as a liberal defend your right to say that I should not be a liberal - it's also similar to the fact that it is not possible to be fully accepting of all (more Orthodox) forms of Islam without accepting some degree of sexism)

    - - - Updated - - -




    And that is probably the nub of it. If the mixed bogs have floor to ceiling cubicles directly opening onto the corridor (so there's no shared "this is the bogs" space) each containing its own bog and sink, plus a room of urinals (because that makes best use of space and water), there's little chance of an issue. Other than the lack of facilities (there are never enough) I've not heard of people complaining about this approach being used in Costabucks etc.
    Yup.

    When we eventually redo our toilets in the hall, it's what we're going for. Female members have been consulted and are on board. We're doing away with urinals though, no space for those. We'll fit eco-flush cisterns. What we currently have are 1950's originals, the flush goes on for ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Yup.

    When we eventually redo our toilets in the hall, it's what we're going for. Female members have been consulted and are on board. We're doing away with urinals though, no space for those. We'll fit eco-flush cisterns. What we currently have are 1950's originals, the flush goes on for ever.
    In a Scout context you've also got a Safeguarding benefit there too.

    There's also "if it's yellow let it mellow...."

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