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Thread: Training Moan

  1. #1
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    Training Moan

    Its been a couple of years since I've whinged about this but here goes, I'd just like to gauge whether this is normal and I'm overreacting or it shouldn't be like this?

    So when someone does an online course they have to screenshot the result (at which point it could have been anyone completing it) and send to me as the only person in my group who's got any grasp on how the training works. So firstly why cant the easy online modules already be linked directly to compass?

    I then send the proof onto the district training person (theres only one). Shes great and it must be a lot of work, but I still have to chase up whether it actually gets done, and sometimes keep chasing, because in the past we've done training assume it was uploaded and then years later been accused of not doing it and not been able to prove otherwise.

    The training system is already really unwieldy but then it gets worse when people do actual training in person. Previously if someone went on the course this would get ticked off on compass, sometimes district would do it and sometimes in would have to chase people to provide certs to scan to pass to district then chase them as above

    Now, its suddenly got a lot worse because district are insisting that all modules are separately validated by a different training validator. So now, I have to chase the volunteer for the course certs, chase to get the modules uploaded, chase the person to go and speak to the validator (sometimes they insist on a meeting other times seemingly we can get away with totally pointless signed witness forms). And then I have to go and chase that person to make sure they actually validate it on compass. It's a total joke.

    Is it me?

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Are you a training adviser? I am.

    If someone gives me a certificate for a mandatory ongoing learning module, the safeguarding/safety/GDPR ones, I just go into compass, add the module and mark it validated. Job done. I mean, it's a bit of a hassle because I don't do it that much so I have to remind myself each time but...

    Sounds like someone's taking things to extremes in your district. Or mine is being dangerously slapdash of course!
    Ian Wilkins
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    Sounds like someone needs to say to the relevant bod in the district "Look mucker, if you make getting training signed off too hard (understand it has to be reasonably rigorous) people won't do it, you'll then be left with a choice of chasing people to do training (and getting blanked) or replacing them when they leave (because they can't face dealing with training). Training is about enabling people to provide good quality scouting, its not an empire building exercise in proving you can be more exacting than anyone else"

    As I understand it training is under overhaul at present so my advice would be to cling on, grit your teeth, get anyone through that is on a deadline and wait to see what falls out of the tree currently being given a good shaking!
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    Sounds like someone needs to say to the relevant bod in the district "Look mucker, if you make getting training signed off too hard (understand it has to be reasonably rigorous) people won't do it, you'll then be left with a choice of chasing people to do training (and getting blanked) or replacing them when they leave (because they can't face dealing with training). Training is about enabling people to provide good quality scouting, its not an empire building exercise in proving you can be more exacting than anyone else"

    As I understand it training is under overhaul at present so my advice would be to cling on, grit your teeth, get anyone through that is on a deadline and wait to see what falls out of the tree currently being given a good shaking!

    I agree with the first paragraph but not the second.

    I know that training is currently under discussion etc but changes could be some time off.

    Also based on previous experience, every time the adult scheme changes there is a long lead in time to allow those part way through to complete on the outgoing scheme whilst new or changed roles get the new.

    Those still not completed the old by the end of the changeover then get a less than successful hybrid to try to cover any missing learning.
    No I would definitely suggest that you complete on one scheme or the other and not a mixture.

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    I think that we have a good training scheme that is sometimes spoilt by local rules or as someone put it empire building.

    I don't think that witness statements are pointless however. If I have to validate a Leader and I can't get there to see them do something I can get someone that I trust to tell me that it went OK. I do this quite a lot. I have done the same thing for validations etc at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    I think that we have a good training scheme that is sometimes spoilt by local rules or as someone put it empire building.
    I don't, I think it's clunky, messy, overcomplicated and has had too many bits bolted on over the years. It's a burden, not a benefit. It's also done by relatively few people, as most volunteers don't stay for 3 years.

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    Well I've just entered the role of GSL (not been pushed into being a Training Advisor just yet, but our illustrious DC apparently wants to get all GSLs to be TAs as soon as).

    Straight away, went on Compass to see what's what in the Group, so that I don't end up getting moaned at from higher up...basically all of the Group Exec have done zero training. My late predecessor was not tech savvy (didn't own a computer, nevermind knew how to use one or go online or anything) and so it's not really a surprise she let training fall a bit as she was unaware that there was any due. The Group Chair in particular has been in post since apparently 1983 and never done 1E or GDPR (or rather whatever equivalent was around at that time).

    So I've been quickly emailing the members of the Exec to tell them that a) they have training to do please, and please print your certificates as PDF files to send to me, but b) it's not very time-consuming, so let's please just get it done so we can get on with some Scouting. Gotta keep one step ahead of both the DC and CC...

    I do think that it should be possible to link the e-learning modules on the Scout website directly into Compass: instead of just giving your name to generate some cheap certificate at the end, also give your membership number and hook the system directly into Compass. Once the module is passed, a cheap certificate is still generated, but it also sends info to Compass directly to update that the module has been completed. This could easily be done for 1/1E, 3, 4, and GDPR at the very least. I'm sure there's a least one or two others that can be done entirely as e-learning that could be added to that list, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoopaCooper View Post
    Well I've just entered the role of GSL (not been pushed into being a Training Advisor just yet, but our illustrious DC apparently wants to get all GSLs to be TAs as soon as).

    Straight away, went on Compass to see what's what in the Group, so that I don't end up getting moaned at from higher up...basically all of the Group Exec have done zero training. My late predecessor was not tech savvy (didn't own a computer, nevermind knew how to use one or go online or anything) and so it's not really a surprise she let training fall a bit as she was unaware that there was any due. The Group Chair in particular has been in post since apparently 1983 and never done 1E or GDPR (or rather whatever equivalent was around at that time).

    So I've been quickly emailing the members of the Exec to tell them that a) they have training to do please, and please print your certificates as PDF files to send to me, but b) it's not very time-consuming, so let's please just get it done so we can get on with some Scouting. Gotta keep one step ahead of both the DC and CC...

    I do think that it should be possible to link the e-learning modules on the Scout website directly into Compass: instead of just giving your name to generate some cheap certificate at the end, also give your membership number and hook the system directly into Compass. Once the module is passed, a cheap certificate is still generated, but it also sends info to Compass directly to update that the module has been completed. This could easily be done for 1/1E, 3, 4, and GDPR at the very least. I'm sure there's a least one or two others that can be done entirely as e-learning that could be added to that list, too.
    Whilst I can see what you are saying and it would be good if those that could be were linked.

    Do remember though that many of the modules whilst may be e-learning some do have to be validated. So unless there was a way to validate online too that would be a stumbling block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Whilst I can see what you are saying and it would be good if those that could be were linked.

    Do remember though that many of the modules whilst may be e-learning some do have to be validated. So unless there was a way to validate online too that would be a stumbling block.
    O yes of course, any modules that do require actual validation would still need to be actually validated, I'd never suggest that. But the ones like 1/1E, 3, 4 (I think), and GDPR don't really require any validation beyond taking the e-learning and passing the test at the end, do they?

    Beyond that, I can't even begin to see how online validation could be made workable. xD But such modules could maybe still be marked as "training complete", with the validation requirement left unchecked.
    Last edited by KoopaCooper; 12-06-2019 at 08:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoopaCooper View Post
    O yes of course, any modules that do require actual validation would still need to be actually validated, I'd never suggest that. But the ones like 1/1E, 3, 4 (I think), and GDPR don't really require any validation beyond taking the e-learning and passing the test at the end, do they?

    Beyond that, I can't even begin to see how online validation could be made workable. xD But such modules could maybe still be marked as "training complete", with the validation requirement left unchecked.

    GDPR just requires the e learning to be completed (including the test at the end). The others have validation requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    GDPR just requires the e learning to be completed (including the test at the end). The others have validation requirements.
    I stand corrected. Like I said, I'm not a Training Advisor (nor do I particularly wish to be...though I may find I'll have no choice in the matter down the track xD)
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    If used correctly I think witness statements are excellent. Getting confirmation from someone that they have seen the person putting the training into practice is surely the best validation there can be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    If used correctly I think witness statements are excellent. Getting confirmation from someone that they have seen the person putting the training into practice is surely the best validation there can be?
    Agreed. But does it need to be written and signed? Can it not be a telephone call? "Hi, did you watch X do the Grand Howl tonight?.... Great, I will validate that module."

    The pieces of paper are largely pointless. The paper trail is only worthwhile if:

    - there is an audit process that bothers to check them at some point.
    - there is a specified process for their storage and retention.
    - there is a sanction should they be found to be missing.

    The last one is perhaps the most important here. What exactly are you going to do if it turns out that there is no evidence available that someone completed there GDPR training but it is signed off on Compass?

    The requirement for these pieces of paper is based on the premise that no-one is dishonest enough to fake the paperwork - but they would be dishonest enough to sign off training if we did not have the paperwork.

    It is very easy to require other people to do lots of paperwork upfront in a process because it appears to be necessary, but never follow through on the implications of storing an managing the paperwork and the process.

    I think the general principle should be: "if you do not have a process that requires the paperwork to be stored and audited, don't generate it in the first place - word of mouth or informal communication (e.g. an email) is good enough."

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    There has very much been a feeling that becoming a leader is only really for people who love folders, dividers, tabs etc. and enjoy spending ages collating evidence and making it look pretty.

    The last time i tried to get involved as a TA etc, the training team were clearly very organised people who loved paperwork in triplicate and neat folders etc... the idea that this was quite onerous and offputting simply did not compute. There was this amazing hovering constant nonsensical threat that gilwell would descend at any moment and demand to see 17 modules (or however many) of perfectly organised evidence or we'd all be our on our ear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoopaCooper View Post
    O yes of course, any modules that do require actual validation would still need to be actually validated, I'd never suggest that. But the ones like 1/1E, 3, 4 (I think), and GDPR don't really require any validation beyond taking the e-learning and passing the test at the end, do they?

    Beyond that, I can't even begin to see how online validation could be made workable. xD But such modules could maybe still be marked as "training complete", with the validation requirement left unchecked.
    I again agree that it would be good to have the learning marked as 'completed'. It saves someone else doing it and from my view when someone has completed county led training modules they rarely get marked as training completed, instead wait until validated.

    I suspect that if training advisers were allowed in all instances to mark training complete or whether it is needed after Module 2 when it is local and then the actual validations are added by those who are allowed that may help. I cannot speak too much on TAs as when the scheme was introduced I did the training then as a result of that training and what we were told decided that I didn't want the role as I had too much on.

    I'm just glad that I don't have to do 'manager' training now as it appears to be Regional here and there are no advertised opportunities in our County and would require driving 40-50 miles. OK if you drive but I don't.

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