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Thread: Non vegetarian vegetarian cub/scout on camp

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    So essentially you are saying that I should ignore my experiences on the basis of what other people have done?

    Has there been any studies that have shown parents who have given their children sweets/sugar etc and then noticed a deterioration in behaviour?

    I respect that in the absence of personal experiences you can and should seek the view of others.

    But each child is different and it always possible to find studies that back up your position.


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    i wasn't trying to be as personal or as argumentative as you may have read. I was sharing what ithought was an interesting study that offers a perspective that we don't naturally consider.

    editL i meant randomised control, i think. not double blind. it was this sort of thing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7963081/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...963081/related
    Last edited by big chris; 26-06-2019 at 04:53 PM.

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    Senior Member Shaun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    i wasn't trying to be as personal or as argumentative as you may have read. I was sharing what ithought was an interesting study that offers a perspective that we don't naturally consider.

    editL i meant randomised control, i think. not double blind. it was this sort of thing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7963081/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...963081/related
    No worries Chris.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    We don't ban sweets. Camp is supposed to be fun, they're supposed to let their hair down a bit - I thought that's what Scouts was for?
    We do ban sweets. Camp is supposed to be fun, and also a place where they learn new stuff. Including about themselves. Learning that you can have fun without stuffing yourself full of sweets is a good thing to learn. And learning that wildlife will go after food that's not out of reach is a lesson best learnt early - and a good excuse to enforce the ban. We very seldom get anybody objecting, and nobody who complains afterwards.
    John Russell
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    We do ban sweets. Camp is supposed to be fun, and also a place where they learn new stuff. Including about themselves. Learning that you can have fun without stuffing yourself full of sweets is a good thing to learn. And learning that wildlife will go after food that's not out of reach is a lesson best learnt early - and a good excuse to enforce the ban. We very seldom get anybody objecting, and nobody who complains afterwards.
    Fair enough. We prefer balance to bans - it seems a wee bit more reflective of what kids will face elsewhere in life. Not sure you can properly demonstrate restraint if you just ban stuff.

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Got to say, one of the things that irritates me is, when you open a packet of biscuits - the kids behave as if they've either not had a biscuit for a hundred years, won't be able to have another biscuit for another hundred years or are scared someone else will get all the biscuits.
    We evidently have very well trained Scouts then. Its a strict one biscuit each rule to start with but once we know eveyone has had a chance to get at least one biscuit then the bowl of biscuits is passed around and they can help themselves to a second biscuit and a third or fourth if the supply lasts that long and they want that many. I think it helps that they know we always have plenty of biscuits so they will always get more than one eventually (if they want it) and often more than that (shockingly there are often biscuits left by the Scouts which the adults munch on once the kids have gone to bed).

    We also have a one chocolate biscuit bar (usually penguin or club) each at luchtime rule. Woe betide the kids if they break that rule as its the Leaders that have to go without if they do (we make our lunches after the kids have made theirs). One camp when some of the Scouts clearly deliberately ate more than one each they were not laughing the next day when Scouts got none but Leaders got two each and were told in no uncertain terms why
    Last edited by shiftypete; 26-06-2019 at 10:45 PM.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    So essentially you are saying that I should ignore my experiences on the basis of what other people have done?
    If those "other people" are publishing peer reviewed, properly run experiements - then essetially yes, you should seriously question the conclusions that you are drawing from your own experiences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    Has there been any studies that have shown parents who have given their children sweets/sugar etc and then noticed a deterioration in behaviour?
    Not that I have found. There have been hypothosis that have been published that suggested this and there have been many press puff pieces that have regurgitate this hypothosis. It appears to go back to Benjamin Feingold, M.D. who published the Feingold Diet in 1973.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    I respect that in the absence of personal experiences you can and should seek the view of others.

    But each child is different and it always possible to find studies that back up your position.
    Each child's personality and response to a social situation will be different, but their fundamental biology is basically the same. If sugar increases hormone levels that affect brain activity in the human body it will do so in just about all of us - and it would have done so in the people that were part of these studies.

    I think that you should seek the results of well-conducted science, most especially if it disagrees with your personal experience.

    It is not possible to find well conduct studies that back up your position, unless there really is evidence for that position. If there is no evidence, well conducted studies will not be available to back it up.

    I too have personal experience of situations where giving children sweets has an obvious and immmediate effect of their behaviour. However, by taking account of these well conducted studies it is possible to stand back and realise that it is not the "content" of the foodstuff that is causing the change in behaviour (we know this because other people have carefully demonstrated it). So, knowing that, it is possible to look at the rest of the circumstances and consider what might be the real cause.

    The studies that have shown that it is enough to just tell the parents that their children have had sweets to get the parents to pecieve poor behaviour should tell us how complicated these things are and how fragile the conclusions are that we draw from our "personal experiences".

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I
    I too have personal experience of situations where giving children sweets has an obvious and immmediate effect of their behaviour. However, by taking account of these well conducted studies it is possible to stand back and realise that it is not the "content" of the foodstuff that is causing the change in behaviour (we know this because other people have carefully demonstrated it). So, knowing that, it is possible to look at the rest of the circumstances and consider what might be the real cause.

    The studies that have shown that it is enough to just tell the parents that their children have had sweets to get the parents to pecieve poor behaviour should tell us how complicated these things are and how fragile the conclusions are that we draw from our "personal experiences".

    Yeah, bigger picture, other influences, yeas, I can see that. But if NOT allowing sweets at midnight - and sugar IS an energy source - sees a lowering of exclitement and hyperactivity then, I'd go with not allowing sweets - but that, as I said, is not the only reason for not isuing them.

    Let's talk caffiene - there are people who will not take coffee after 3:00pm because the caffiene hit keeps them awake at night. I'll often have a coffee before going to bed and then sleep like a log. Science says that caffiene is a stimulant that prevents sleep... Alcohol though... go off like a log and then wake up three hour later bouncing off the walls... I guess we are all different.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Yeah, bigger picture, other influences, yeas, I can see that. But if NOT allowing sweets at midnight - and sugar IS an energy source - sees a lowering of exclitement and hyperactivity then, I'd go with not allowing sweets - but that, as I said, is not the only reason for not isuing them.

    Let's talk caffiene - there are people who will not take coffee after 3:00pm because the caffiene hit keeps them awake at night. I'll often have a coffee before going to bed and then sleep like a log. Science says that caffiene is a stimulant that prevents sleep... Alcohol though... go off like a log and then wake up three hour later bouncing off the walls... I guess we are all different.
    With caffeine in particular there are two genetic influences to it - fast metabolisers and slow metabolisers. You're clearly the former, I'm very much the latter (though I can get away with one after dinner as the last of the day).

    Re alcohol you're similar to me, it completely knackers my sleep, even one or two.

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Yeah, bigger picture, other influences, yeas, I can see that. But if NOT allowing sweets at midnight - and sugar IS an energy source - sees a lowering of excitement and hyperactivity then, I'd go with not allowing sweets - but that, as I said, is not the only reason for not isuing them.
    Absolutely agree. I also "discourage" sweets too. I say "discourage" rather than "ban" because I still have a sneaky admiration for the Cubs that ignore the ban on midnight feasts and do it anyway (I certainly did when I was a Cub). I will stand outside their tent and listen as they wisper conspiratorially and as long is they keep it quiet I usually let them get away with it - or I might whisper "I know what you are doing", which always has a gratifying effect - and certainly raises their adrenaline levels

    Sometimes it is good to have a few rules that you know they are going to break, just so that they can get the thrill of breaking them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Let's talk caffiene - there are people who will not take coffee after 3:00pm because the caffiene hit keeps them awake at night. I'll often have a coffee before going to bed and then sleep like a log. Science says that caffiene is a stimulant that prevents sleep... Alcohol though... go off like a log and then wake up three hour later bouncing off the walls... I guess we are all different.
    I don't understand what caffeine or alcohol does to sleep. I don't drink caffeine after 3pm and I do drink alcohol (not on camp). Sometimes I can sleep, sometimes I can't. I never can on Cub camp - just can't stop worriying about what the kids are doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post

    I don't understand what caffeine or alcohol does to sleep.
    I am not convinced that anyone really knows what food/ drink does to our metabolism.

    I am a T2 Diabetic, have been for a long time. I try and watch what I am eating - it prevents me from spilling it or missing my mouth - but over the years I have had doctors and dieticians tell me this and that, and despite dieting and eating the "right" foods, my blood sugars have remained high and my weight slowly rose. Of late, I kind of threw the towel in and, within reason, ate what I wanted, when I wanted... I have lost a stone in weight and my blood sugars have settled down - not where they should be but better than in the past.
    Ewan Scott

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    I think you have to figure it out for yourself depending on your own individual reactions to things and probably like me by the time you even start to figure it out, its relatively late in life. I certainly wish I'd known in my 20's what I now know about my reactions to high refined sugar content and I'm still trying to work out what combined with carbonated drinks (even just fizzy water) has a fairly violent effect on my digestive system. You can sometimes see it around you as well - I'm more than a little suspicious of chocolate and its possible effects on my wife's health condition (but then telling her that she perhaps ought to stop eating it may well have life limiting effects on me!).
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I will stand outside their tent and listen as they whisper conspiratorially .
    Ah yes, that magical soundproof canvas that YP seem to think all tents are made from...

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CliveS View Post
    Ah yes, that magical soundproof canvas that YP seem to think all tents are made from...
    Aye, some of the things the explorers say before I interject with a question or comment...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Aye, some of the things the explorers say before I interject with a question or comment...
    Fascinating conversations and sometimes amazing revelations (so I'm told....)

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    My stance on cultural, religious and parent imposed dietary requirements (as opposed to allergies or medically imposed) is that I will cater to what is on the forms, I will make sure everyone knows what is suitable for any diet (ie this and that is vegitarian, those over there are halal, these are not etc etc)

    I cannot enforce what people eat beyond that and don't pretend to the parents that I can

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