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Thread: What to get funding for...

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    What to get funding for...

    Been a bit quiet, so I thought I'd ask a question and see what falls out of the tree. ( I know it is only half a metaphor).

    We started Navigators five years ago with the sum total of zero funds and zero equipment. Initially we ran on goodwill and cost free evenings till we built some resources. We had the great experience of support from friends in Scouting that allowed us to kayak and camp. In the interveing period we have raised funds through grants and fundraising and have bought our own equipment. We now have almost as much kit as we had when we ran Scouts - minus the heavy Patrol Tents and the Mess tent which we do not have drying space for.

    In brief, we have tents, camp cooking kit, kayaks, canoes, trailer, circus kit, archery kit, shooting kit, balls, ropes, pulleys ( no poles due to lack of storage and transport), climbing kit arts and crafts stuff, and a couple of windsurfers!

    We have a "sponsored" sports session running in addition to our Navigators, with two paid coaches - funded by a lottery grant, for a school year.

    I have not applied for funding recently because, well, we have run out of any "need" for equipment.

    Funding for "residentials" is always difficult to access, but that aside, what would you seek funding for in our position?

    I have thought about joint projects but finding partners is difficult - Scouts and Guides as partners is just not going to happen - we would be willing but... So, any ideas? It seems such a waste that money is going abegging and we are not asking for it:-)
    Ewan Scott

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    Hmmm...

    I wouldn't be so sure that money is going a-begging. Maybe it's time to let other groups - who may not be quite so effective at getting grants - to have a bite at the cherry?

    Back in the day when I did this for a dry bar I worked at, I remember the Lloyd's Bank guy saying, they got literally thousands of applications for grant money, and they could only really go (for the most part) by which was best presented. He also said, often, they had applications which didn't make the grade, but might have, if there weren't others that were better prepared ahead of them in the queue.

    Just because you can apply for money, doesn't mean you should. Not everyone knows how to do it well, those that do, but don't necessarily need the money, may be gazumping groups that don't, if you see what I mean.

    We tend not to, and we don't do bag packs (etc) any more because our parents are fairly well off. Last batch of cash we got was from the Coop, but parents nominated us, so it was still their money, sort of. And Jumble Sales are a form of purgatory - damnit, we EARN that money...


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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hmmm...

    I wouldn't be so sure that money is going a-begging. Maybe it's time to let other groups - who may not be quite so effective at getting grants - to have a bite at the cherry?

    Back in the day when I did this for a dry bar I worked at, I remember the Lloyd's Bank guy saying, they got literally thousands of applications for grant money, and they could only really go (for the most part) by which was best presented. He also said, often, they had applications which didn't make the grade, but might have, if there weren't others that were better prepared ahead of them in the queue.

    Just because you can apply for money, doesn't mean you should. Not everyone knows how to do it well, those that do, but don't necessarily need the money, may be gazumping groups that don't, if you see what I mean.

    We tend not to, and we don't do bag packs (etc) any more because our parents are fairly well off. Last batch of cash we got was from the Coop, but parents nominated us, so it was still their money, sort of. And Jumble Sales are a form of purgatory - damnit, we EARN that money...


    In answer to your first part - yes, there is money going abegging - small pots of a couple of hundred quid here and there. On the same point when I was raising money at Scouts, I got a message from the DC ( Not the usual suspect) asking me to stop applying for grants becuase others were getting upset that they were not getting any funding. On asking the question, it turned out that they had not even applied. On offering to help them access funds, I was told, no thanks, they don't want anyone interfering. Well, some years down the line and the money is still sitting there. One local funder has recently taken to funding a project in Lincoln because no-one locally was applying!!!

    I have raised well into £100,000 for Scouts and now Navs through Grant applications. I have built a great Scout Group, I am now building a great Navigator Group, in the mentime I see begging letters going out on social media from other groups - which is against POR last time I checked, and is not needed if they spent a little bit of time looking, or accepted help.

    You earn money from your Jumble Sale - and well done to you. A jumble sale/ table top here might scrape in £100, a prize draw might make a couple of hundred quid. That helps pay for stuff we can't get a grant for. But if I can get funding - and I've already been thinking today - to train young people to become youth leaders, first aiders, or skills instructors, then that is what I will do. If I could get funding for residentials, I would go for that too.

    I have spoken to a number of charities who are funders, and whilst some are always oversubscribed, there are others who are frustrated that they don't dispose of their budget by the year end - they have to go and find people to give funds to. The Lotteries are all big cash awards and easy solutions - if you get through the process - but there are plenty of local " low hanging fruit" that help build a pot that some larger funders will match.

    Just this year we have been invited to apply to two local funds - we have, at the moment declined, but that may change if I can identify a project that meets our ends. - That's roughly £1000 sitting waiting fr people to ask for it. If you have a purpose, why not go for it?
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    I guess I'd look at the different areas of spending first and write down likely expense in those areas.

    Rent etc.
    Capital items
    Events
    Training

    Then I'd knock off the things that are already budgeted and paid for.

    Then I'd rank the remaining things in order of priority. A kind of must have, should have, like to have.

    Must have first aid training.
    Should have 2 more tents
    Like to have 2 qualified lifeguards

    Then I'd see what should be paid for by the parents as part of normal expense. (the must haves, I guess) and knock those off.

    Then I'd look at the funding available and see what the funders will pay for. Maybe at the very bottom of the list was 'exam revision training and mindfulness classes' but amazingly, somebody local.will fund that so it might be worth a go.


    Me?

    I'd want enough kit for each patrol to cook. Good kit. Cast iron stoves etc.

    Id want canvas tents that have replaceable parts that will last 10 yrs at least.

    I'd want more everybody from 13+ to be first aid trained.

    I'd want to do work around mental health and self care.

    I'd like a pinewood derby track

    I'd love some woodland (with a tap)










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    As a group we stopped all fundraising when we got our new HQ. We had all the equipment we needed, were perfectly solvent and it just didn't feel comfortable raising money for things like international camps etc when there are so many other deserving causes out there trying to raise money. When we do a raffle or an event now, we pick a local charity.

    Although as a group we are quite well off, we only ever do relatively low cost activities and camping so that its affordable for everyone without fundraising (kids do have an option of a couple of district internationals)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    In answer to your first part - yes, there is money going abegging - small pots of a couple of hundred quid here and there. On the same point when I was raising money at Scouts, I got a message from the DC ( Not the usual suspect) asking me to stop applying for grants becuase others were getting upset that they were not getting any funding. On asking the question, it turned out that they had not even applied. On offering to help them access funds, I was told, no thanks, they don't want anyone interfering. Well, some years down the line and the money is still sitting there. One local funder has recently taken to funding a project in Lincoln because no-one locally was applying!!!

    I have raised well into £100,000 for Scouts and now Navs through Grant applications. I have built a great Scout Group, I am now building a great Navigator Group, in the mentime I see begging letters going out on social media from other groups - which is against POR last time I checked, and is not needed if they spent a little bit of time looking, or accepted help.

    You earn money from your Jumble Sale - and well done to you. A jumble sale/ table top here might scrape in £100, a prize draw might make a couple of hundred quid. That helps pay for stuff we can't get a grant for. But if I can get funding - and I've already been thinking today - to train young people to become youth leaders, first aiders, or skills instructors, then that is what I will do. If I could get funding for residentials, I would go for that too.

    I have spoken to a number of charities who are funders, and whilst some are always oversubscribed, there are others who are frustrated that they don't dispose of their budget by the year end - they have to go and find people to give funds to. The Lotteries are all big cash awards and easy solutions - if you get through the process - but there are plenty of local " low hanging fruit" that help build a pot that some larger funders will match.

    Just this year we have been invited to apply to two local funds - we have, at the moment declined, but that may change if I can identify a project that meets our ends. - That's roughly £1000 sitting waiting fr people to ask for it. If you have a purpose, why not go for it?
    I get it.

    But...

    The onus is on those small charities/trusts to get the word out that they have cash to give away. Just because they're not doing that, doesn't mean organisations that are doing okay should continue to hoover up money they maybe don't need.

    At this point. I'll insert the much-needed Internet Forum Caveat - I'm not saying that your organisation is not deserving of funding for the stuff you mention above - because it all sounds laudable. In our context, given the socio-economic state of our kids and their families (mostly anyway), i'd just feel guilty getting cash that might otherwise be used more efficaciously by other more deserving set-ups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I get it.

    But...

    The onus is on those small charities/trusts to get the word out that they have cash to give away. Just because they're not doing that, doesn't mean organisations that are doing okay should continue to hoover up money they maybe don't need.

    At this point. I'll insert the much-needed Internet Forum Caveat - I'm not saying that your organisation is not deserving of funding for the stuff you mention above - because it all sounds laudable. In our context, given the socio-economic state of our kids and their families (mostly anyway), i'd just feel guilty getting cash that might otherwise be used more efficaciously by other more deserving set-ups.

    But you can't get money you don't have a use/ need for.

    As a Charity, we have the duty, and even for Scouts, it is written into POR, that you must do your best to make the best use of your funds - I paraphrase. So, you have £500 in your funds that you could use to subsidise a residential, fund kids from deprived families. That is absolutely fine. However, if you do that, you can't buy the two new tents you require to ensure you have te kit for the summer camp. If £500 is available from a local charity to help buy the tents, then you can have your cake and eat it - you are making the best use of your funds.

    Funders will rarely fund those who do not need the funds. They will rarely fund those who will mismanage the funds - though there are some who will throw money at projects that they suspect will fail, because they feel they are helping and giving difficult projects a chance. Once funders have awarded grants, they may ask for a completion survey, but they rarely ask for money back, I did underspend on one project and had to refund £1000 to A4A, but generally, a project failure, or even transfer of equipment after the completion date is ignored.

    I entered a discussion on the Woodcraft Folks Group about funding - their central funding has been withdrawn and some of ther groups are suffereing - they are often in deprived areas. I suggested routes to funding from local funders - most just requiring a letter asking for support. The responses were along the lines of, "we don't have time/ CBA" - we want the centralised funding back.

    Funding applications are something that are an enigma to many people. So, they often avoid making the applications. The money just sits in a fund, defeating the purpose of the fund.

    Funding is a frequent issue for many groups but if they don't make the applications, if they reject offers of help, then that is their problem.

    We seem to have a very different dynamic locally. Jumble sales/ table tops - even prize draws, bring in small amounts. Bag packing is now a very rare possibility. Groups struggle to find funds. Or, they do without. I have never been of the "do without" brigade.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I see begging letters going out on social media from other groups - which is against POR last time I checked, and is not needed if they spent a little bit of time looking, or accepted help.
    I raised a similar point recently with HQ about individuals using Crowdfunding platforms on behalf of their Scout Groups for funds for major projects on their HQs. I pointed out 2 problems
    a) there was nothing to stop me Crowd Funding for a Group I was not connected with and waltzing off with the money myself as these platforms don't seem to have any checks in place I can see?
    b) Most of Crowdfunding appeals I looked on JustGiving are failing to raise much money, partly because the wording of some of the appeals was interesting, for example this one which has raised £0 in 4 months - https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...eek-scoutgroup
    I dont hold out much hope for a speedy resolution to the issue though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    But you can't get money you don't have a use/ need for.

    As a Charity, we have the duty, and even for Scouts, it is written into POR, that you must do your best to make the best use of your funds - I paraphrase. So, you have £500 in your funds that you could use to subsidise a residential, fund kids from deprived families. That is absolutely fine. However, if you do that, you can't buy the two new tents you require to ensure you have te kit for the summer camp. If £500 is available from a local charity to help buy the tents, then you can have your cake and eat it - you are making the best use of your funds.

    Funders will rarely fund those who do not need the funds. They will rarely fund those who will mismanage the funds - though there are some who will throw money at projects that they suspect will fail, because they feel they are helping and giving difficult projects a chance. Once funders have awarded grants, they may ask for a completion survey, but they rarely ask for money back, I did underspend on one project and had to refund £1000 to A4A, but generally, a project failure, or even transfer of equipment after the completion date is ignored.

    I entered a discussion on the Woodcraft Folks Group about funding - their central funding has been withdrawn and some of ther groups are suffereing - they are often in deprived areas. I suggested routes to funding from local funders - most just requiring a letter asking for support. The responses were along the lines of, "we don't have time/ CBA" - we want the centralised funding back.

    Funding applications are something that are an enigma to many people. So, they often avoid making the applications. The money just sits in a fund, defeating the purpose of the fund.

    Funding is a frequent issue for many groups but if they don't make the applications, if they reject offers of help, then that is their problem.

    We seem to have a very different dynamic locally. Jumble sales/ table tops - even prize draws, bring in small amounts. Bag packing is now a very rare possibility. Groups struggle to find funds. Or, they do without. I have never been of the "do without" brigade.
    IFC up front, I'm not saying you'd do this...

    But I think it's fair to say, we could always find uses for money, if said money was up for grabs. Funders only know what they're told and what they can find out during the awards process.

    I've seen it where organisations hoover up all sorts of funding from all sorts of different sources, leaving others (literally) twirling in the wake they make as they blast their way through the area, (example -P*pe B*nd). They really don't 'need' all that funding - if it's put next to other groups and their aims & objectives - but they have the mass and inertia (and dare I say, a slick fund raiser - we can't all be masters of the written word). So they end up leaving (unintentionally) other groups completely in the lurch.

    I've also seen it where fundraisers (remember the IFC) tailor their submission to suit the criteria, as opposed to their needs. Heck, that's very much part of the process from the fundraisers side.

    I would suggest, if a trust or charity is reaching it's targets at the end of each funding cycle - meaning all their cash is being allocated - they're not going to feel motivated to look at their funding paradigm as much compared to if their cash is going unallocated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by johnL View Post
    I raised a similar point recently with HQ about individuals using Crowdfunding platforms on behalf of their Scout Groups for funds for major projects on their HQs. I pointed out 2 problems
    a) there was nothing to stop me Crowd Funding for a Group I was not connected with and waltzing off with the money myself as these platforms don't seem to have any checks in place I can see?
    b) Most of Crowdfunding appeals I looked on JustGiving are failing to raise much money, partly because the wording of some of the appeals was interesting, for example this one which has raised £0 in 4 months - https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...eek-scoutgroup
    I dont hold out much hope for a speedy resolution to the issue though!
    I think there is a surface here, that if scratched, would produce quite a lot of quite unacceptable behaviour. I haven't seen any Scout-related ones. But a lot of it does rather seem to be the internet equivalent of a concatenation of begging bowl and scam.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnL View Post
    I raised a similar point recently with HQ about individuals using Crowdfunding platforms on behalf of their Scout Groups for funds for major projects on their HQs. I pointed out 2 problems
    a) there was nothing to stop me Crowd Funding for a Group I was not connected with and waltzing off with the money myself as these platforms don't seem to have any checks in place I can see?
    b) Most of Crowdfunding appeals I looked on JustGiving are failing to raise much money, partly because the wording of some of the appeals was interesting, for example this one which has raised £0 in 4 months - https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...eek-scoutgroup
    I dont hold out much hope for a speedy resolution to the issue though!
    I see similar crowdfunding posts for various things and I always view them with suspicion. I have seen Scouts post begging letters in local shops to raise funds for the Jamboree - which is plain wrong, even if endorsed by their DC.

    There is a huge difference between a request for funds for a legitimate project and posting begging letters or tryng to use Crowdfunding for projects.

    I also see begging letters from individuals seeking to get funding tosend their kids on school trips to India, South America etc, on commercial tours. I kind of find that objectionable.
    Ewan Scott

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    I've seen it where organisations hoover up all sorts of funding from all sorts of different sources, leaving others (literally) twirling in the wake they make as they blast their way through the area, (example -P*pe B*nd). They really don't 'need' all that funding - if it's put next to other groups and their aims & objectives - but they have the mass and inertia (and dare I say, a slick fund raiser - we can't all be masters of the written word). So they end up leaving (unintentionally) other groups completely in the lurch.
    f you are not a member of the group raising funds, it is a tad unfair to judge that they don't need them. You do have a problem with the Pipe Band .

    I've also seen it where fundraisers (remember the IFC) tailor their submission to suit the criteria, as opposed to their needs. Heck, that's very much part of the process from the fundraisers side.
    To be fair, that is how you win funds, by tailoring your needs to meet their criteria. We had the use of a fleet of old boats on loan from a Scout Group, for which we were very grateful. We did feel a need for more modern boats and for securty, our own fleet - the GSL loanng the boats and his GSL could move on at any time and we could be left high and dry. The application had to be "tailored - Postcode lottery and AA pointed us at Sport England. Sport England do not support non-sport specific groups. We had to taior our application, after several discussions with BC and Sport England to persuade them that our project fitted their criteria. We were successful and gained over £9,000. Frankly, I worked ****** hard to get that grant. They don't just hand out that sort of money in the way you seem to think they do.

    Maybe I am a slick fundraiser, I don't know. But I's rather go for funding where possible rather than ask parents to dig even deeper.

    You didn't say wether you NEEDED your Jumble Sale.

    [qoute]
    I would suggest, if a trust or charity is reaching it's targets at the end of each funding cycle - meaning all their cash is being allocated - they're not going to feel motivated to look at their funding paradigm as much compared to if their cash is going unallocated.[/QUOTE]

    But the corollary is the case, those who allocate all funds make their presence known. Others, who have unspent allocations, don't seek publicity because they want people to get off their backsides and make an effort. Or, they are wary of being ovewhelmed by applications
    Ewan Scott

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Maybe I am a slick fundraiser, I don't know.
    Don't get big-headed, but you're a slick fundraiser. Well, you're ahead of all the ones who don't even know they could apply. Ahead of all the ones that take one look at the form and forget it. Ahead of all the ones that don't or can't tailor their bid to suit the fundraiser.

    Like you say, you got warned off when a GSL, and no one stepped in and helped themselves to what you were warned off from. That tells you everything about how far ahead of most of the pack you are.
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    Funding is subjective, take the p**e b**d for example. They recruit from the same economic demographic as we do - albeit, they recruit a wee bit more widely. I'm sure they absolutely cannot do without all the paraphernalia they strump about with, (I also know they're not backwards when it comes to asking parents to cough up for stuff either...)

    But ask any other music-related group - be it charitable or school-based. Utter the words p**e b**d, and you'll get a dirty look. We only really lose members to them, although not recently, because what we do is so different - the pots of money they monopolize cover different aims than any we'd apply to. However, if we chose to start our own pipe band, we'd be scunnered. (We have no plans to start our own pipe band...)

    And yes, you are a slick fundraiser, and well done for doing it.

    What surprised me back in my fundraising days, was how easy it was to do. In my first six months of trying, I managed to glean the best part of £60k for the youth cafe I worked at. That was with an old 386 computer, a hooky version of AmiPro and a bit of imagination. I co-authored a submission to Lloyds Bank with a committee member - she was a lawyer. I swear to this day, had she not worded it like a legal document, I could have got double the amount they eventually awarded us.

    The guy at Lloyds said he much preferred submissions that weren't too professional. He said paid fundraisers were a reality, and they often got the cash they asked for, but, at a human level (as in us sitting there chatting), he preferred applications that were a wee bit rough around the edges.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Funding is subjective, take the p**e b**d for example. They recruit from the same economic demographic as we do - albeit, they recruit a wee bit more widely. I'm sure they absolutely cannot do without all the paraphernalia they strump about with, (I also know they're not backwards when it comes to asking parents to cough up for stuff either...)

    But ask any other music-related group - be it charitable or school-based. Utter the words p**e b**d, and you'll get a dirty look. We only really lose members to them, although not recently, because what we do is so different - the pots of money they monopolize cover different aims than any we'd apply to. However, if we chose to start our own pipe band, we'd be scunnered. (We have no plans to start our own pipe band...)

    And yes, you are a slick fundraiser, and well done for doing it.

    What surprised me back in my fundraising days, was how easy it was to do. In my first six months of trying, I managed to glean the best part of £60k for the youth cafe I worked at. That was with an old 386 computer, a hooky version of AmiPro and a bit of imagination. I co-authored a submission to Lloyds Bank with a committee member - she was a lawyer. I swear to this day, had she not worded it like a legal document, I could have got double the amount they eventually awarded us.

    The guy at Lloyds said he much preferred submissions that weren't too professional. He said paid fundraisers were a reality, and they often got the cash they asked for, but, at a human level (as in us sitting there chatting), he preferred applications that were a wee bit rough around the edges.

    Many funds exclude applications from paid fundraisers. They would rather the %age goes to the cause than a professional. But pro fundraisers tend to work for the big names such as MaMillan, Oxfam etc. Though, I suspect our local hospice uses a pro fundraising manager. They have a considerable business network to manage.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  18. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    But you can't get money you don't have a use/ need for.

    As a Charity, we have the duty, and even for Scouts, it is written into POR, that you must do your best to make the best use of your funds - I paraphrase. So, you have £500 in your funds that you could use to subsidise a residential, fund kids from deprived families. That is absolutely fine. However, if you do that, you can't buy the two new tents you require to ensure you have te kit for the summer camp. If £500 is available from a local charity to help buy the tents, then you can have your cake and eat it - you are making the best use of your funds.

    Funders will rarely fund those who do not need the funds. They will rarely fund those who will mismanage the funds - though there are some who will throw money at projects that they suspect will fail, because they feel they are helping and giving difficult projects a chance. Once funders have awarded grants, they may ask for a completion survey, but they rarely ask for money back, I did underspend on one project and had to refund £1000 to A4A, but generally, a project failure, or even transfer of equipment after the completion date is ignored.

    SNIP
    I am aware of a local Scout Group who many years ago applied for a grant for a project. That project never got off the ground and the GSL decided to incorporate the grant into Group funds.

    A while after (2 or 3 years I believe) the funders had asked to see the progress and the accounts for the project and decided that as it hadn't been started they wanted the money back.

    Ooops, the money had been incorporated and spent on other things. Raising the money and paying it back very nearly bankrupted the Group.

    Nothing was said at District and the person who made the decision went on to other roles in Scouting and indeed is still involved in a position where if not careful similar decisions could be made.

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