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Thread: DBS check - what form(s)?

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    DBS check - what form(s)?

    Slightly dumb question here...

    If a parent wants to get a DBS check so that they can help out on the occasional day outing with a section, do they need to fill out the whole Adult Information, Reference, and ID checking form? Or can they just literally fill out the ID checking form alone?

    My late predecessor used to get parents to fill in all three forms so that they could be officially appointed as an Occasional Helper for DBS-check purposes, but from what I've read on the Scout website that's just not needed. I don't want to scare off parents who may otherwise be willing to muck in and help with day trips by swamping them with forms if they're unnecessary...!

    I have at least worked out now that I'm able to add parents to Compass directly, rather than having to go through the Group Secretary (or the AAC Secretary), which should speed things up considerably. I've not actually had cause to do it yet, but I figure it should be fairly self-explanatory.
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    If you can get the parent to bring the necessary id documents you can simply sit down with them and enter the parent on Compass, request a DBS, complete the DBS answering the questions as you go along i.e. subject present or not etc. In the same session you can then get the parent to complete their part of the DBS procedure and then the process commences. It takes about an hour and, in my experience, a response is ususlayy recived within 7 days - the record being 3. Whilst doing the DBS you can learn quite alot about the parent as they give you the individual id documents. It is both instructive and makes it easy to discuss with the individual what they are interested in. No point swamping them with paper and forms etc. It also provides reassurance to the parent that the Scout Association is a responsible organisation which takes preventing unsuitable individuals from being involved seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boballan View Post
    If you can get the parent to bring the necessary id documents you can simply sit down with them and enter the parent on Compass, request a DBS, complete the DBS answering the questions as you go along i.e. subject present or not etc. In the same session you can then get the parent to complete their part of the DBS procedure and then the process commences. It takes about an hour and, in my experience, a response is ususlayy recived within 7 days - the record being 3. Whilst doing the DBS you can learn quite alot about the parent as they give you the individual id documents. It is both instructive and makes it easy to discuss with the individual what they are interested in. No point swamping them with paper and forms etc. It also provides reassurance to the parent that the Scout Association is a responsible organisation which takes preventing unsuitable individuals from being involved seriously.
    Right, so that fits pretty well with what I thought - our late GSL (who was not technologically-minded, mind you - also she was in her 80s) was asking volunteers to fill out three forms for an Occasional Helper role when actually it just requires ID checking. I hope nobody ever got scared off by all that paperwork. xD

    Although I'd still need to rely on the ID checking form because the only internet-capable device I own is my desktop PC. I mean don't get me wrong, I love using the internet just fine - but I feel like it's getting everywhere in some people's lives in rather invasive ways. But still, it's just the one form, not three - thanks for the help!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoopaCooper View Post
    Right, so that fits pretty well with what I thought - our late GSL (who was not technologically-minded, mind you - also she was in her 80s) was asking volunteers to fill out three forms for an Occasional Helper role when actually it just requires ID checking. I hope nobody ever got scared off by all that paperwork. xD

    Although I'd still need to rely on the ID checking form because the only internet-capable device I own is my desktop PC. I mean don't get me wrong, I love using the internet just fine - but I feel like it's getting everywhere in some people's lives in rather invasive ways. But still, it's just the one form, not three - thanks for the help!

    The ID checking form is to be completed by the person who is checking the ID so that is one form that the applicant does not need to complete.

    If you hand them the Adult application form to complete but do as I do and cross out the bits that they don't need to complete then that reduces that. But again if you or someone sits with them you can complete it rather than them if needed.

    So looking at the current form. You can complete the first part about roles, they do the personal information bit, along with the diversity bit on pages 2 and 3 and further information on page 4 but tell tham the hobbies box etc whilst useful are not necessary. The references part can be crossed out for OH and Exec members. Get them to read or read to them the declaration and get them to sign it.

    Job done. If they have their documents with them at the same time you deal with that then go home and do all you have to do and they complete their final DBS part and the paperwork stored securely until all cleared then shreaded.

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    It also worth adding to this, that there no need to actually run a DBS check if they want to come to a day outing presuming there is no Nights Away aspect. It could in-fact be illegal to do so if not necessary.
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    Agree if you can get them to sit down at a pc with you then do it direct onto compass, no forms required.

    As long as the dodgy 4g connection works at the hut, I can do it in about 15mins.

    Make sure the address on compass is the same as the one on Atlantic (may have changed if they were already on there) otherwise the system helpfully crashes and dies with no expanation.

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    boballan (06-09-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsheehan View Post
    It also worth adding to this, that there no need to actually run a DBS check if they want to come to a day outing presuming there is no Nights Away aspect. It could in-fact be illegal to do so if not necessary.
    I think this is the key point here. As dsheehan says, you should not request an enhanced DBS disclosure for a non-member just helping at a day trip alongside other Leaders. You may only request a DBS disclosure for regulated activity, see POR 3.26.

    https://members.scouts.org.uk/docume...hapter%203.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by pstretch View Post
    I think this is the key point here. As dsheehan says, you should not request an enhanced DBS disclosure for a non-member just helping at a day trip alongside other Leaders. You may only request a DBS disclosure for regulated activity, see POR 3.26.

    https://members.scouts.org.uk/docume...hapter%203.pdf

    Providing that it is not intended that they will have unsupervised access.

    Or in other words if it planned that each adult without a DBS will have someone overseeing them who has got a DBS then i agree.

    If it is planned that Mr Smith or Mr Smith and Mrs Jones who do not have a DBS between them will be supervising a group of kids whilst walking round an area being visited then you may need to think again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Providing that it is not intended that they will have unsupervised access.

    Or in other words if it planned that each adult without a DBS will have someone overseeing them who has got a DBS then i agree.

    If it is planned that Mr Smith or Mr Smith and Mrs Jones who do not have a DBS between them will be supervising a group of kids whilst walking round an area being visited then you may need to think again.
    Yes, that was my logic in regards to this. By having a DBS check, the adults are no longer required under POR to be supervised every single second of the outing by another adult who *does* have a DBS check in place.
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    pstretch is right though; as I understand it you're not allowed (in law) to request a DBS check for someone just helping on a day outing. So it would be more a case of arranging things so that someone with a check was around? That may raise practical issues of course.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    pstretch is right though; as I understand it you're not allowed (in law) to request a DBS check for someone just helping on a day outing. So it would be more a case of arranging things so that someone with a check was around? That may raise practical issues of course.
    But surely if the intention is that they can/may have unsupervised access to the YPs, that would count as "regulated activity" which means the DBS check is a legal requirement, yes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    pstretch is right though; as I understand it you're not allowed (in law) to request a DBS check for someone just helping on a day outing. So it would be more a case of arranging things so that someone with a check was around? That may raise practical issues of course.

    In which case could I suggest that you read POR rule 3.26.b and c.

    This rule does not break the law so it is not Scouting doing something wrong and Leaders do not need to ensure unchecked adults are watched by a checked adult simply because you donít want to have a check done.

    You can of course do that but you need to have sufficient checked adults to supervise unchecked ones. If you are putting two adults looking after a group of kids then one of them must be checked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pstretch View Post
    I think this is the key point here. As dsheehan says, you should not request an enhanced DBS disclosure for a non-member just helping at a day trip alongside other Leaders. You may only request a DBS disclosure for regulated activity, see POR 3.26.

    https://members.scouts.org.uk/docume...hapter%203.pdf
    If by alongside other leaders you mean that it is not planned that one of these unchecked adults will have unsupervised access then I agree. But if you are going say to the zoo and splitting them down into small groups each with an adult or two then at least one of the adults in each otherwise unsupervised group must be checked. The rule you have quoted says that.

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    Yes, POR is clear about no unsupervised access by unchecked adults. What's less clear to me is what the legislation expects us to do about it, given that, at least in principle, the options are to check extra adults, or to set things up so that unchecked adults are supervised. Not wanting to check is not the issue, but rather under what circumstances it is legal to check.

    So, the DfE guidance says that unsupervised access is likely to be regulated activity, i.e. require a check, only if it is done regularly (see the summary). And other DfE guidance gives examples which make it clear that it may be legitimate not to check provided that there is supervision - but the context is regular activity. If in fact a check is required irrespective of how often an adult has access, then the mention of whether activity is regular makes no sense. Why include it at all anywhere in the legislation or guidance?

    Of course we are still bound by POR, but it's puzzling.

    (For clarity I've left out references to overnight events, but it's clear that those would require checks for all adults anyway.)
    Last edited by DKRSL; 07-09-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    Yes, POR is clear about no unsupervised access by unchecked adults. What's less clear to me is what the legislation expects us to do about it, given that, at least in principle, the options are to check extra adults, or to set things up so that unchecked adults are supervised. Not wanting to check is not the issue, but rather under what circumstances it is legal to check.

    So, the DfE guidance says that unsupervised access is likely to be regulated activity, i.e. require a check, only if it is done regularly (see the summary). And other DfE guidance gives examples which make it clear that it may be legitimate not to check provided that there is supervision - but the context is regular activity. If in fact a check is required irrespective of how often an adult has access, then the mention of whether activity is regular makes no sense. Why include it at all anywhere in the legislation or guidance?

    Of course we are still bound by POR, but it's puzzling.

    (For clarity I've left out references to overnight events, but it's clear that those would require checks for all adults anyway.)
    Firstly this is how the Department of Education see things which is effectively their take on it. Like they do DBS checks more regular than Scouting etc.

    Second I understand that in one instance you have an adult who is to have unsupervised access to young people. There is nothing to say how regular that needs to be. A one off unsupervised access is enough. Using the info you have mentioned it covers certain scenarios such as taking kids to the loos etc which you may have to do if you are supervising a group.

    The other instance is where you may not have unsupervised access per se but you are visiting regularly four times in thirty days. This is as I understand it because you build up a trust if you are regularly involved with them and this could in some instances be used to the advantage of an unscrupulous person.

    Our rules specifically state the circumstances when we need to DBS and the rules clearly have the word OR it doesnít say and. So it is not both or all scenarios but either..

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Firstly this is how the Department of Education see things which is effectively their take on it. Like they do DBS checks more regular than Scouting etc.

    Second I understand that in one instance you have an adult who is to have unsupervised access to young people. There is nothing to say how regular that needs to be. A one off unsupervised access is enough. Using the info you have mentioned it covers certain scenarios such as taking kids to the loos etc which you may have to do if you are supervising a group.

    The other instance is where you may not have unsupervised access per se but you are visiting regularly four times in thirty days. This is as I understand it because you build up a trust if you are regularly involved with them and this could in some instances be used to the advantage of an unscrupulous person.

    Our rules specifically state the circumstances when we need to DBS and the rules clearly have the word OR it doesnít say and. So it is not both or all scenarios but either...
    (Bold added by me above for emphasis)

    This is what I read too.

    Rule 3.26(b):
    A Personal Enquiry (including where relevant a criminal records disclosure check) will always be required for any person aged 18 or over who meets any of the following criteria: sv

    • wishes to become a Member or Associate member (for members of Scout Network - see 3.26m below); OR
    • will be a member of an Executive Committee; OR
    • will be assisting with overnight activities (including Nights Away); OR
    • may be helping out once a week (or on four occasions in a thirty day period) or more frequently; OR
    • will have unsupervised access to young people.


    So there are 5 situations where a DBS is required - meeting ANY ONE of them is sufficient. The adult doesn't have to be there every week; they don't have to be helping with an overnight/Nights Away activity; they certainly don't have to be a(n Associate) Member or on the Executive; but if they'll have unsupervised access to young people such as taking them to the nearest toilets on an occasional day outing, they still need to hold a DBS.
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