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Thread: 2019 National Census numbers

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    Some very interesting points... the one that stuck out for me is Pa_broon's point about Leaders potentially leaving because of the bureaucratic rules. In my experience an enthusiastic DC can be the kiss of death to many Leaders... when there are lapses in training modules being updated on time but then a new broom DC comes in and says all Leaders must update asap, that can be the prompt for Leaders to say enough. Especially when most die-hard Leaders have done the modules before, and now are presented with patronising online modules that are on the brink of being insulting. I am one of those that skips through all the animations and graphics and learning points begging to get to the end and print off the ****** certificate so I can send it and bin it. Some of us in our professional lives are managers, trainers, GDPR experts and to be treated like idiots as a volunteer is not the way to ensure loyalty. So side stepping the requirements (because of a lax DC) is often a god send.

    Putting Compass to oneside (as an irrelevance to day to day scouting) I have found OSM does help with most Leaders - whilst in those cases where Leaders are reluctant to use OSM we, as a Group, can support them by having an admin person that runs OSM and communications. That works well, and is far from Admin people driving the Leaders or causing conflict. In our Sections the Leaders run their own OSM, but with Group Admin support in the background for payments /subs and setting up stuff.



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    I am just glad to see the fall in number of Explorers has been stemmed this year. It really is pretty bad that given the low number of Explorers to Scouts that number would fall for one year nevermind 3 years running. It should be easy to keep Explorer numbers rising, just keep opening more Explorer Units to increase the provision for all those Scouts out there who have no where (suitable) to go at the end of Scouts currently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I am just glad to see the fall in number of Explorers has been stemmed this year. It really is pretty bad that given the low number of Explorers to Scouts that number would fall for one year nevermind 3 years running. It should be easy to keep Explorer numbers rising, just keep opening more Explorer Units to increase the provision for all those Scouts out there who have no where (suitable) to go at the end of Scouts currently.
    Obviously up is better than down but that's not really wild, less than one extra explorer for every 6 groups. Round here there's plenty of explorer provision, the scouts just don't want to go.

    I wonder what can be done. I actually think svouting just isn't as relevant to modern youth as it was once. In particular if you just don't like outdoor activities and camping there's nothing in the movement for you. I was interested to see a recent 1FB post pushing a scout promoted Stem and entrepreneurial programme approach for 2 likes and 2 comments where any old time server getting a 5 year badge gets well over 100 like and 30 comments....

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Obviously up is better than down but that's not really wild, less than one extra explorer for every 6 groups. Round here there's plenty of explorer provision, the scouts just don't want to go.

    I wonder what can be done. I actually think svouting just isn't as relevant to modern youth as it was once. In particular if you just don't like outdoor activities and camping there's nothing in the movement for you. I was interested to see a recent 1FB post pushing a scout promoted Stem and entrepreneurial programme approach for 2 likes and 2 comments where any old time server getting a 5 year badge gets well over 100 like and 30 comments....

    It is a challenge. Getting Explorer-age to stay is not always easy. The slightest issue can trigger an exit - had that problem.

    I think that it is not quite right to say that kids are not into outdoor activities. That is a generalisation and we all know that generalisations lead to misconceptions.

    The young people who come to Navigators, are the same young people who would go to Scouts (ish), and whilst we do not have huge numbers at our group, the one thing that they do tell me, largely, is that it is better than sitting at a screen. They enjoy daft games, they enjoy campfires, archery, climbing, tag-X, kayaking, fire spinning, and crucially, being with their mates.

    I am not at all convinced that a STEM or Entrepreneurial programme approach would work. There is now an inherrent mentality that you can buy technology when you want it. If something breaks down, you just buy another one. We, in Scouts, had a cutaway engine that showed how an engine and gearbox worked. I do most of my own mechanical work, and we had a mechanic willing to help do work on a car. But there was absolutely zero interest. We couldn't give the cutaway engine away and it ended up in the skip.

    We had a light and sound rig at Scouts - only one Explorer ever showed any interest in setting it up and using it. Everyone wanted to be a performer. Ironically, now I have people interested in backstage work and no performers - but no equipment...
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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    We are just sending out a letter to advise that our Scout section is ceasing to meet - we have no adults prepared to be consistent leaders. We have been keeping it working for about 18 months with the GSL and others covering but the time has come. Hopefully we may see a response but we have not had one in the past, but perhaps they did not believe we would actually pull the plug.
    This is such a shame.

    With us, the Scout Section has been the lynch pin of the group. It's been the lynch pin because it's never had leaders who were filling in, or who came in off the back of an or-else recruitment campaign, and they were never parents. At least that's how it looks to me. Beavers, Cubs and VS/Explorers have came and went, but Scouts has ran pretty much constantly for over 50 years in the current building and before that in the school or church. I believe there was a break during the Second World War.

    Make of that what you will.

    I hope a pause will bring in people who will adopt the troop, not just step in temporarily.

    I've said it elsewhere, and I'd repeat it. This franchise model with all the corporate language, the brand, and the cookie-cut, leader model will cause us problems in the long run. What keeps leaders is the community spirit, the social aspect and dare I use one of Ewan's favourite terms, the esprit de corp.

    The leader surge we got with the Scout section, came off the back of a humorous, community-based recruitment campaign, with not a whiff of a job description, or interview panel, or appointments process. Our district is picking itself back up, but I dread the day they start insisting we start in with all that stuff, because I don't think it works well (for smaller groups) at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul o View Post
    Some very interesting points... the one that stuck out for me is Pa_broon's point about Leaders potentially leaving because of the [COLOR=#333333]bureaucratic rules. In my experience an enthusiastic DC can be the kiss of death to many Leaders... when there are lapses in training modules being updated on time but then a new broom DC comes in and says all Leaders must update asap, that can be the prompt for Leaders to say enough. Especially when most die-hard Leaders have done the modules before, and now are presented with patronising online modules that are on the brink of being insulting. I am one of those that skips through all the animations and graphics and learning points begging to get to the end and print off the ****** certificate so I can send it and bin it. Some of us in our professional lives are managers, trainers, GDPR experts and to be treated like idiots as a volunteer is not the way to ensure loyalty. So side stepping the requirements (because of a lax DC) is often a god send.
    Agreed.

    Apparently though, you're not allowed to rubbish the training because it means you're just complacent or arrogant. Which entirely ignores the fact that the people doing and administering the training have been recruited using the same rigour as any other adult volunteer. We're not allowed to question the experience of assessors/trainers (or the efficacy of the training), but the experience of long-standing leaders (and any experience they might have) is just ignored. To me, that is proof the system is only really there to cover TSA's and the administrators backs - whether the administrators (most of whom are incredibly decent people) - agree with it or not.

    I get quite het up about this, I'm not even sure if it's a serious problem. Not having much a district has meant we've never been overly bothered by any of it. I understand though, it's problematic for other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I get quite het up about this, I'm not even sure if it's a serious problem. Not having much a district has meant we've never been overly bothered by any of it. I understand though, it's problematic for other people.
    We have an excellent DC and good District training team. We use the 'corporate training programe' in a sensible, pragmatic manner. We 'sell' the training scheme to new recruits in a positive, light-hearted way and emphasis the benefits that it can bring to them.

    In private we provide constructive feedback up the chain for the things that we disagree with and think can be improved upon, including critiquing the overly work-like language that is used. (we are usually ignored, but ho-hum, we recognise that we are just one voice in a cacophony of voices). We also selectively ignore initiatives if we think they will not improve what we offer (YouShaped largely passed us by because we were already doing that stuff anyway).

    We do not find that the 'process' gets in the way for most of our leaders. For some it is a pain, and nothing more than a huddle to jump over, for others, it is a useful helping hand and a visible sign that there is more to Scouting than just our group.

    We sell the District Appointments panel as an important independent balance against our GSL (me) pulling the wool over a prospective new leader's eyes - even if we privately think that it is a bit of waste of time (especially role changes).

    Using this approach we find that new recruits are not put off and generally embrace the small amount of admin that is required to become a leader.

    By being positive in public and saving our complaints and negativity for private we try to portray a happy place that people would want to volunteer to be part of.

    We do not have a significant problem in recruiting new leaders (I have taken on 8 new leaders in the last 3 weeks).

    If people think that you think there is a problem in Scouting, they are not likely to want to be a part of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Some might say, this is (anecdotal) evidence to support the notion that at Scout age anyway, a mixed section may not be the ideal.
    One thing is certain in life, generalising from one's own experience is almost always a bad idea.


    If your anecdote provides evidence in one direction and someone else's provides evidence in another, what does that tell you? Are you prepared to change your view because of some else's anecdote?

    My personal experience of Scouting in mixed-gender sections would appear to be the complete opposite of yours. It has been positive for both the boys and the girls.

    I am not saying that my experience means that you are wrong and I am right. I am just saying that an anecdote is not meaningful evidence for anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcush View Post
    I think the start of the downward turn has finally come (it's taken a time) The lack of leaders in many areas will start to impact the number of youth members and think over the next decade there will be a decline in membership.
    Blimey, it is nice to see such a positive attitude to Scouting

    I utterly disagree.

    But I was born with rose-tinted spectacles.

    My experience in the 10 years that I have been back involved with Scouting has been a positive one. I have seen more and more positive views of Scouting both nationally and locally. The general attitude of the kids towards Scouting has been growing more positive. I am not saying that it is all positive everywhere, but I certainly do not see signs of imminent decline.

    The biggest barrier that I see to the recruitment of leaders (at least in my direct experience within my own group) has been the negative attitude that is protrade by some existing leaders. There is nothing more likely to put off new recruits than meeting a negative leader that tells them how awful it all is. One of the few times I have had to speak to a leader about their behaviour has been to ask them to shut up if they could not be positive about the movement. Complain in private by all means, but to complain within earshot of potential new recruits is like putting a stake through the heart of the group.

    You get new leaders by showing that the existing leaders are having a better time than they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    We have an excellent DC and good District training team. We use the 'corporate training programe' in a sensible, pragmatic manner. We 'sell' the training scheme to new recruits in a positive, light-hearted way and emphasis the benefits that it can bring to them.

    In private we provide constructive feedback up the chain for the things that we disagree with and think can be improved upon, including critiquing the overly work-like language that is used. (we are usually ignored, but ho-hum, we recognise that we are just one voice in a cacophony of voices). We also selectively ignore initiatives if we think they will not improve what we offer (YouShaped largely passed us by because we were already doing that stuff anyway).

    We do not find that the 'process' gets in the way for most of our leaders. For some it is a pain, and nothing more than a huddle to jump over, for others, it is a useful helping hand and a visible sign that there is more to Scouting than just our group.

    We sell the District Appointments panel as an important independent balance against our GSL (me) pulling the wool over a prospective new leader's eyes - even if we privately think that it is a bit of waste of time (especially role changes).

    Using this approach we find that new recruits are not put off and generally embrace the small amount of admin that is required to become a leader.

    By being positive in public and saving our complaints and negativity for private we try to portray a happy place that people would want to volunteer to be part of.

    We do not have a significant problem in recruiting new leaders (I have taken on 8 new leaders in the last 3 weeks).

    If people think that you think there is a problem in Scouting, they are not likely to want to be a part of it.



    One thing is certain in life, generalising from one's own experience is almost always a bad idea.


    If your anecdote provides evidence in one direction and someone else's provides evidence in another, what does that tell you? Are you prepared to change your view because of some else's anecdote?

    My personal experience of Scouting in mixed-gender sections would appear to be the complete opposite of yours. It has been positive for both the boys and the girls.

    I am not saying that my experience means that you are wrong and I am right. I am just saying that an anecdote is not meaningful evidence for anything.
    That was my point about anecdotal evidence - that it goes in all directions, I think I even said pretty much what you just said (I did, I just checked) - but thanks for the lecture.

    Not sure how long you've been involved in Scouts, but I'm glad it's working for you, and that you are able to pick and choose so don't feel overly burdened by the creeping bureaucracy. But as you've read, that's not my view. So far, for the most part, it's also not been my experience - due to not having much of a district to deal with, (which is a double edged sword at times). But, as I also said, I feel that may be changing.

    Got to say, it's my view that Scouts is currently working despite a lot of the corporate flimflam, not because of it. Just because something appears to be working on the surface, doesn't mean it's working as effectively as it could.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul o View Post
    Some of us in our professional lives are managers, trainers, GDPR experts and to be treated like idiots as a volunteer is not the way to ensure loyalty.
    Presumably, as a professional that does these things in our daily lives, we can also appreciate that sometimes a national charity like TSA is often left with no choice and is forced by external factors to instigate box-ticking training exercises.


    GDPR is a classic case in point. TSA will have been advised that, if there is a major breach, they will need to be able to show the ICO evidence that they have taken the training of volunteers seriously. They will have looked at how that can be done and decided that the only mechanism that they can see is to require an online GDPR course as a mandated part of every volunteer's training. Many of us will have experienced the same thing in our professional lives. I think the advise that TSA received about GDPR was very poor (and I have told them this), but that does not change anything.

    It is not always the fault of TSA. (sometimes it is, but not always )

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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    Blimey, it is nice to see such a positive attitude to Scouting

    I utterly disagree.

    But I was born with rose-tinted spectacles.

    My experience in the 10 years that I have been back involved with Scouting has been a positive one. I have seen more and more positive views of Scouting both nationally and locally. The general attitude of the kids towards Scouting has been growing more positive. I am not saying that it is all positive everywhere, but I certainly do not see signs of imminent decline.

    The biggest barrier that I see to the recruitment of leaders (at least in my direct experience within my own group) has been the negative attitude that is protrade by some existing leaders. There is nothing more likely to put off new recruits than meeting a negative leader that tells them how awful it all is. One of the few times I have had to speak to a leader about their behaviour has been to ask them to shut up if they could not be positive about the movement. Complain in private by all means, but to complain within earshot of potential new recruits is like putting a stake through the heart of the group.

    You get new leaders by showing that the existing leaders are having a better time than they are.
    Yikes.

    What a way to run an voluntary organisation. Existing volunteers get a row of they're being honest about it.

    Do you realise how bad that sounds? Surely, if existing volunteers aren't happy, telling them to shut up and be more positive, might be one of the reason why they're complaining about it?

    I'm not sure, but I hope that last line was tongue in cheek? :-/

    That said - I also don't see signs of imminent decline - but - there are two side to this. There's youth membership and there's adult membership. I rather suspect the former is increasingly out-stripping the latter and it's a bit of a time bomb. And that, I put down to the structure & management of adult volunteering in Scouting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post

    The biggest barrier that I see to the recruitment of leaders (at least in my direct experience within my own group) has been the negative attitude that is protrade by some existing leaders. There is nothing more likely to put off new recruits than meeting a negative leader that tells them how awful it all is.
    And this, is a real issue. There were so many Leaders who complained about the struggle to keep going, blah, blah, blah. No wonder they struggled.

    If I had a penny for every time some long serving Leader told me it couldn't be done, I'd have a decent mal out on it.

    Perhaps it was part of my problem. I reluctantly signed up and then I bought into the game - big time. People didn't like the idea that their doomsaying was being ignored.

    When we set up Navigators, we were out for a hike and we met a retired Doctor who knew a few people in Scouts. His first comment was, "You know that this is unsustainable." Well, I'd heard that before. We are just as sustainable as the next Group.

    But.. it is a common thing. I am involved in setting up another youth oriented project. I am being told, "It will never work." - "It didn't work the last time." and so on. Well, week one and it loks like I have the committee and people prepared to much in and make things happen. I have councillors' backing. We have land and we have access. There just seems to be a need for people to be negative if it a/ isn't their idea. B/ they failed previously.
    Ewan Scott

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    I have said before that I reckon the reason potential volunteers contact our Group to volunteer with is that we have a website so they can actually find we exist and the website looks vaguely modern and has some photos of our members doing fun stuff on there (yes we need to update the photos but they still give a good impression, very few grip and grin type photos).

    I am also fairly sure that one of the reasons we actually get people to stay and volunteer once they have contacted us and actually turned up to a Section meeting is the friendly positive vibe we generally have as a Group. I think its clear that the Leaders are having fun not just the kids. It helps that we now have quite a young Leadership and they tend to be younger so they feel like they fit in rather than being greated by a couple of "old duffers" and no adults under 50 in sight.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 16-09-2019 at 07:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I have said before that I reckon the reason potnetial volunteers contact our Group to volunteer with is that we have a website so they can actually find we exist and the website looks vaguely modern and has some photos of our members doing fun stuff on there (yes we need to update the photos but they still give a good impression, very few grip and grin type photos).

    I am also fairly sure that one of the reasons we actually get people to stay and volunteer once they have contacted us and actually turned up to a Section meeting is the friendly positive vibe we generally have as a Group. I think its clear that the Leaders are having fun not just the kids. It helps that we now have quite a young Leadership and they tend to be younger so they feel like they fit in rather than being greated by a couple of "old duffers" and no adults under 50 in sight.
    Indeed.

    The recruitment drive we had, had no leaders in it at all, we let the kids do the selling - and it worked.

    The problem arose (and we got round it by essentially pretending it wasn't there) was when the administration was supposed to begin. If Scouting was a job and you went through an interview process with an appointments committee, and you had your meeting with HR and they began to outline the training involved, talked about training plans blah blah blah, you go with it because it's a job. If that starts at Scouts... I really don't know who thought this was the way forward...

    The most important thing is personalities and people getting along. It's camaraderie among leaders and kids. Again, you have work colleagues - some of whom you might even like and think of as friends. But you get along with people at work because it's your job. Having leaders parachuted in by district via an appointments committee (for example) with little or no opportunity for input from existing leaders is potentially deeply problematic.

    In my 25 years as a leader and the other 10(ish) as a member (that I can remember), our district only very rarely did it because it never worked well. Indeed, we had a Scout Leader parachuted in by our own GSL from within the group way back when and the scouts went on strike for two weeks.

    As already said, it really depends on how groups are ran. Some will work that way because that's how they've always worked. We never have and there will be others in the boat. If a DC (etc) came in and insisted we did, it could be hugely problematic.

    Out of interest, are there any stats for Leader turn-over? Not adult helpers, but Leaders?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Out of interest, are there any stats for Leader turn-over? Not adult helpers, but Leaders?
    Yeah, IIRC there are basically two peaks of average service length, one at around 2 years and the other at around 15 years.

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    I suppose there will be lots of anecdotal evidence in all directions as to why it's two and fifteen years. I'd guess that it corresponds roughly with kids in sections and kids going through all the sections.

    Interestingly (or not), I don't think whether a leader is a parent or not makes much difference in terms of tenure. I do think however, that scouting skills take bit of a dip if the volunteer is doing it not because they have an interest, but because no one else put their hand up (or they made eye contact at the wrong moment.)

    I still think we need to move back toward leadership being a pastime/hobby as opposed to an occupation/job. The way I'd do that (to start) is by removing all the workplace language and methods currently deployed.

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