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Thread: Moving towards compulsory youth data on OSM

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    Moving towards compulsory youth data on OSM

    For those not at Reunion this audio clip from Scout Radio gives a strong hint about where things are going in the relationship between the Scout Association and OSM

    https://scout.radio/play/qa-online-scout-manager/

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    They have been talking about this for several years, it actually sounds more cautious than previously.

    OSM already has a high take-up throughout TSA, so this makes it harder for the Association to be able to afford to drive any kind of core deal with them. The HQ dream of having a single database of members is still some way off, in my opinion.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    I hope not. Its data model being section based is a fundamental flaw for a national database of members. Or to put it another way, if TSA stuck their beak into OSM, they'd probably make it worse not better.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    I hope not. Its data model being section based is a fundamental flaw for a national database of members.
    I must admit even as a GSL it drives me mad having to switch Sections constantly rather than being able to have all Sections open at once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    I hope not. Its data model being section based is a fundamental flaw for a national database of members. Or to put it another way, if TSA stuck their beak into OSM, they'd probably make it worse not better.
    I wonder if there are things they can do to make that better though? How do the organisations who already use this at a national level (Irish and NZ guides?) do things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    I hope not. Its data model being section based is a fundamental flaw for a national database of members. Or to put it another way, if TSA stuck their beak into OSM, they'd probably make it worse not better.
    Given that you can share and transfer individuals, there must be only one record person, so I don't think it is fundamentally flawed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Given that you can share and transfer individuals, there must be only one record person, so I don't think it is fundamentally flawed.
    I think that'll depend on the database rules and relations.

    A question I had was around siblings. If a brother of a scout comes up from Cubs - how do you make them a sibling. The sibling function copies and pastes all the details except the name - if you do that, you have to delete the original cub record - which presumably means you lose other data related to that record. From that point of view, the records don't all exist in the same DB group.

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    what if sibling A lives with parent 1, and sibling B lives with parent 2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I think that'll depend on the database rules and relations.

    A question I had was around siblings. If a brother of a scout comes up from Cubs - how do you make them a sibling. The sibling function copies and pastes all the details except the name - if you do that, you have to delete the original cub record - which presumably means you lose other data related to that record. From that point of view, the records don't all exist in the same DB group.
    You don't bother. I think. It's just there to make "ooh, Smiffies little bro started Beavers, so I'll duplicate Smiffy (yikes!) and change the name", if they've come up from cubs, cubs transfer the record to you, and you keep their records. Unless there's some functionality around siblings I'm not aware of, I don't think it does anything like if you change the address in one it changes it in both. It's a copy->paste rather than a link to family Smiffy details that are shared by two names. I think. Not experimented right enough though.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I must admit even as a GSL it drives me mad having to switch Sections constantly rather than being able to have all Sections open at once.
    As a fellow GSL, it drives me bananas too. Although I was a bit bananas anyway...

    I have wondered if it might be possible to make it so that anyone with access to multiple sections sees a single database of all the children in all of the sections they can see, just as a section Leader can see all the children in their own section? Rather than switching back and forth... (especially if, like I've been doing recently, updating Cub Challenge badges on three boys who've just moved on to Scouts; it took several back-and-forths before I worked out how to update their record cards...)

    Then again, I'd also like if it the "Badges by person" page could be given the option to show only Challenge/Activity/Staged Activity/Core badges. Because if your children have a lot of badges, that line of badge icons can get pretty damn long...! xD
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    Terms, payments, ... nothing useful works across sections.
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    You don't bother. I think. It's just there to make "ooh, Smiffies little bro started Beavers, so I'll duplicate Smiffy (yikes!) and change the name", if they've come up from cubs, cubs transfer the record to you, and you keep their records. Unless there's some functionality around siblings I'm not aware of, I don't think it does anything like if you change the address in one it changes it in both. It's a copy->paste rather than a link to family Smiffy details that are shared by two names. I think. Not experimented right enough though.
    Yup.

    I asked about it and yup, as you say, all it does is copy the record and let you change the first name/last name fields of the member. The address and contact details all stay the same. When you email out, it doesn't (or I don't think it does anyway), only send it once to a sibling's shared contact, the email still goes out twice.

    There is no rule linking the sibling records in the database. The problem/question I then had was, (not that we manage badges on OSM, but...) If you copy the record, and delete the original cub record, you must lose all the badge records for that kid? Or perhaps it doesn't store that info? I know it tells you who needs what years-in-the-org badges. Presumably if you copy and paste, it resets that cub to zero years.

    Personally? I find OSM a bit clunky - I manage it for our group (sort of) so I also see all section info (not Beavers, they lapsed with it). It could do with being trimmed down a good bit in terms of number of fields. I think it should come with minimal, as opposed to maximum fields available by default. Most people that use it (I don't think) realise you can remove all the fields you don't use - which from an administrators POV is a braw thing.

    Also, we found that Cubs input was going into different fields (contact info for example) compared to Scout input. Which meant when the records transferred up, it all needs to be fettled so emails go out properly.

    On balance though, once you get it set up, it's decent.

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    The current setup of fields in OSM is a legacy of Compass.

    Ed rejigged everything to correspond with the fields in Compass for youth data for maximum compatibility, but of course then the Compass project fell apart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by London Scouter View Post
    The current setup of fields in OSM is a legacy of Compass.

    Ed rejigged everything to correspond with the fields in Compass for youth data for maximum compatibility, but of course then the Compass project fell apart.
    That's interesting to know, and makes sense.

    I work a wee bit with databases. I'm not a massive expert, only really self taught in the areas that I needed to know about (at work). I've come to the conclusion though, that if you're creating a database for DB experts then have all the fields visible by default. But if it's not for experts, then only show the bear minimum by default and have the option on the front end to add others in if they're needed.

    Avoid Torture of Choice at all costs.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    There is no rule linking the sibling records in the database. The problem/question I then had was, (not that we manage badges on OSM, but...) If you copy the record, and delete the original cub record, you must lose all the badge records for that kid? Or perhaps it doesn't store that info? I know it tells you who needs what years-in-the-org badges. Presumably if you copy and paste, it resets that cub to zero years.
    Ummm, why would you do that? You transfer the cubbywub from the cub section to the big nasty scouts section, accept it in the scout section, and get on with it. Aaah, the penny drops, you don't use it for badge records, so it's basically a glorified name and address thing. All the badge records come up with the cub, so if they'd done 4 nights away, and two hikes away, when they went on the next scout weekend, add two more nights away to their total, and it would tell you they needed to be awarded their 5 nights away badge.

    To be fair, at Explorers, we only use it for the staged badges, then again, that's about all anyone earns in Explorers anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Personally? I find OSM a bit clunky
    Truth spoken.


    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Also, we found that Cubs input was going into different fields (contact info for example) compared to Scout input. Which meant when the records transferred up, it all needs to be fettled so emails go out properly.
    I don't even know how that would happen. There's fields for email addresses, they get filled in...

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    On balance though, once you get it set up, it's decent.
    Yup. For all my non-fanboy stance, I wouldn't want to go back to a spreadsheet or something.
    Ian Wilkins
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