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Thread: TREVOR PHILLIPS october 22 2019, 12:01am, the times Scouts should shun political co

  1. #16
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    Quite a good response from Tim Kidd in a letter printed in today's Times
    > https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/c...form-2l850h292 <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-dups-rejection-of-the-brexit-deal-has-form-2l850h292>

    SCOUTS’ HONOUR
    Sir, Trevor Phillips argues powerfully for the role Scouts play in building personal resilience and reaching out to those young people most in need of opportunities and support (“Scouts should shun political correctness”, Oct 22). It’s fantastic he had such a positive experience as a Scout in Tottenham. Our 640,000-strong membership enjoys the same positive experience today. This includes those who are a part of the 1,280 new units we’ve opened in areas of deprivation over the last five years.

    Social action is key to Scouts. That is why we take exception to Trevor’s claim that the “woke” brigade has downgraded these core skills by “shifting our focus to campaigning on issues such as climate change and homelessness”. Far from distracting our members from acquiring life skills, we believe that taking part in social action enhances their learning by helping them to build empathy, resilience, care and optimism. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
    Tim Kidd,
    UK chief commissioner for the Scout Association

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    Quote Originally Posted by London Scouter View Post
    Quite a good response from Tim Kidd in a letter printed in today's Times
    > https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/c...form-2l850h292 <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-dups-rejection-of-the-brexit-deal-has-form-2l850h292>
    I object to the continued claim of 640K members - that includes adult leaders and network and I think most of the country would expect that to be Scout numbers.

    That niggle aside I don't see that many Scout troops or Cub packs are running programmes which include climate change and homelessness or other social issues at all. The vast majority of programmes (and many sections have no programme at all but knife and fork their activities on a weekly basis) are still very focussed on games and activities and adventure and don't touch the "woke" issues however much Tim might like to hope it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    I object to the continued claim of 640K members - that includes adult leaders and network and I think most of the country would expect that to be Scout numbers.
    Are adults not members then? Are we not scouts? Don't we count?
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Are adults not members then? Are we not scouts? Don't we count?
    Hmmm...

    It is a wee bit misleading. Those outside the organisation would (I think) assume he's talking about scouts - not leaders and other involved adults.

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    I think it’s actually quite important that in Scouting we have a sense of all being in it together - leaders and young people alike making the same promise.

    If we merely become providers of a service that is consumed by young people something important is lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by London Scouter View Post
    I think it’s actually quite important that in Scouting we have a sense of all being in it together - leaders and young people alike making the same promise.

    If we merely become providers of a service that is consumed by young people something important is lost.
    We'll have to agree to disagree, 640K overstates the youth membership (u18) by 40% and I think many would assume the number is youth not adults, unsurprising that's how TSA quote it but doesn't feel totally honest, and few other youth clubs or services would dream of including all the adults in numbers.

    Anyway I still think that's pretty irrelevant in comparison to the message that "social action" is part of Scouting when it is only so for a vanishingly small number of trooops

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    Quote Originally Posted by London Scouter View Post
    I think it’s actually quite important that in Scouting we have a sense of all being in it together - leaders and young people alike making the same promise.

    If we merely become providers of a service that is consumed by young people something important is lost.
    Agree completely. Service providers - we are most assuredly not.

    But in this context, I don't think it applies. Scouts has always been a somewhat segregated movement - there are adults and there are kids (God knows the rules we have love to reflect it).

    It's probably subjective, but if someone asks how many members we have in our scout troop, I don't include the adults. I assume they're asking about kids.

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    I really identfy with the point he is making. recently and its HQ voletnteers doing this. I see much emphaiss on mental health, migrant and immigration issues, LGBT rights and homelessness issued all at the forefront of these peoples posts etc. Dont get me wrong they are doing valid and good stuff. But where are the HQ people shouting about adventure, why I am facing leaders and managers who wont even let scouts and explorers out without a leader with them.

    it also makes us look very left wing and so "WOKE".

    We should test what trevor is saying, I think he is picking up on what a lot of us see. alternative view points are not being given space. certainly any challange against the current in fashon topics and you will be met with claims of racisum, homophibia or worse.. for example i seen shelter box talk delivered but no one explains to the people why some people get themselves into these situation its all biased around they system not individual responsibilty.

    People like Jordan Peterson are pointing this out and we should listen and keep a ballanced view,
    Paul Austin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I really identfy with the point he is making. recently and its HQ voletnteers doing this. I see much emphaiss on mental health, migrant and immigration issues, LGBT rights and homelessness issued all at the forefront of these peoples posts etc. Dont get me wrong they are doing valid and good stuff. But where are the HQ people shouting about adventure, why I am facing leaders and managers who wont even let scouts and explorers out without a leader with them.

    it also makes us look very left wing and so "WOKE".

    We should test what trevor is saying, I think he is picking up on what a lot of us see. alternative view points are not being given space. certainly any challange against the current in fashon topics and you will be met with claims of racisum, homophibia or worse.. for example i seen shelter box talk delivered but no one explains to the people why some people get themselves into these situation its all biased around they system not individual responsibilty.

    People like Jordan Peterson are pointing this out and we should listen and keep a ballanced view,


    Unless these issues arrive on your doorstep, the chance of getting any real involvement from young people ( or adults) is low to zero.

    Get involved in the local community be part of it, make the kids understand that they have a place in it. It works.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I really identfy with the point he is making. recently and its HQ voletnteers doing this. I see much emphaiss on mental health, migrant and immigration issues, LGBT rights and homelessness issued all at the forefront of these peoples posts etc. Dont get me wrong they are doing valid and good stuff. But where are the HQ people shouting about adventure, why I am facing leaders and managers who wont even let scouts and explorers out without a leader with them.

    it also makes us look very left wing and so "WOKE".

    We should test what trevor is saying, I think he is picking up on what a lot of us see. alternative view points are not being given space. certainly any challange against the current in fashon topics and you will be met with claims of racisum, homophibia or worse.. for example i seen shelter box talk delivered but no one explains to the people why some people get themselves into these situation its all biased around they system not individual responsibilty.

    People like Jordan Peterson are pointing this out and we should listen and keep a ballanced view,
    Hmmm...

    I sort of agree, however, chat about homophobia or racism isn't a 'current fashion topic' (if that is indeed what you meant). That's an on-going challenge a lot of people (kids especially) face on a daily basis - where it applies to them.

    There's nothing 'woke' about that. What might be considered woke - and where I'd agree - is in how we talk about it and what people are allowed to or not allowed to say. Working as we do with kids, we have to be extra careful. Adults have a responsibility to learn when not to take offence (something many of the woke crowd cannot seem to master). Kids on the other hand, often don't have the confidence or experience to know how to do this.

    We talk a fair bit about sexuality and mental health. However, as others have pointed out - homelessness is not something which is front and centre, so it doesn't get talked about at all. I think that's a pity, because our kids are very sheltered. Knowing that homelessness is a thing and that foodbank use (for example) is rocketing, would teach them a great deal of humility, because currently, they can be very complacent about it all - they take their fortunate lifestyle massively for granted.

    Caring about each other and having a thought isn't left of right wing - it's a human quality. How we do it however, is rather up for grabs.

    Where I also agree, is the craven hesitancy that exists toward anything mildly risky. I think there has been a huge overreaction - a death by a thousand cuts if you like - about what Scouts is actually all about. I mean, I get it - no one wants to be responsible when something goes wrong. It's been discussed here before, TSA is incredibly skittish in it's day to day operations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hmmm...

    We talk a fair bit about sexuality and mental health. However, as others have pointed out - homelessness is not something which is front and centre, so it doesn't get talked about at all. I think that's a pity, because our kids are very sheltered. Knowing that homelessness is a thing and that foodbank use (for example) is rocketing, would teach them a great deal of humility, because currently, they can be very complacent about it all - they take their fortunate lifestyle massively for granted.
    There is something in what you say, especially that kids take their lifestyle for granted. However, that is a universal story. Kids on the streets of Mumbai take their lifestyle for granted, that is their lot. They sit within a "system", just as our kids do. If they know nothing else, then it is not an issue for them.

    I am old enough to remember the days when a coloured face was a rare sight outside Glasgow, and even then the coloured immigrant was rare. Immigration was not an issue because there was no obvious immigration. It was for most of us, an unseen issue. In a secondary school, of 1600 pupils there was one Indian kid. There was no division, no issue, for the most part. It had no impact on anyone. If anything, he and his family were a curiosity.

    Equally, where we have no contact with homelessness, it is very difficult to get any sort of message across about the issue of homelessness. It is an alien subject. Spending a single night in a cardboard box to raise awareness does nothing to relate to the reality of homelessness - as the kids all see it as a bit of fun and they know that in the morning they will be back at home - and when they are out on the street, they will be supervised, the Police will be aware and watching. You cannot bring the reality of homelssness to young people who have never experienced it, nor, who are probably never likely to experience it (though fate may have other plans).

    All that we can do is highlight the fact that not everyone who ends up on the street is a "loser". That many circumstances can bring about homelessness - such as a child being abused at home, who has nowhere to go to escape abuse but the street. But even that can be difficult to relate to. Tyring to explain how circumstances can lead to homelessness is a hard sell.

    I actually wonder if we should be doing this at all. We should be offering a safe place for kids to be kids. A place where they can learn and grow without the imposition of largely adult issues upon them.

    I recall the sex ed campaign a while back where we were all to guide our Scouts and Explorers on sexual health. That was an issue that purportedly impacts upon teenagers. yet when the subject arose there was horror in the ranks. They either knew all there was to know, or it wasn't somewhere they were prepared to go. I kind of get the impression that with a lot of the political/ social awareness stuff we risk mising the mark too often, because the mark doe not exist in many places.

    We have seen a phenomenal rise in the cases of mental health issues in young people. That is probably in part due to better reporting and awareness, but I sometimes wonder if we all contribute to it by highlighting issues that sometimes maybe don't need highlighting.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    We have seen a phenomenal rise in the cases of mental health issues in young people. That is probably in part due to better reporting and awareness, but I sometimes wonder if we all contribute to it by highlighting issues that sometimes maybe don't need highlighting.
    There's probably a sick irony in that they tell us being active and doing stuff and having a wide circle of friends and being together is great for mental health, and yet we seem to be being encouraged to encourage our charges to worry about more stuff.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    Hmmm...

    It's a narrow path to tread. I can't say I've had any significant mental health problems, so I can't really comment. But, I do speak to people who do, and have asked them about it. I wondered how often things which would not have been counted as a mental health problem, now are because what ever it is, is now classified as such. And that accounts for the rise. Things have got worse, we've just moved the goal posts a wee bit.

    Round our end, we tend not to talk about things in any rigid, planned way. Instead, we make it known that we're open to talk about pretty much anything. We also try to be genuinely friendly, and not be too bothered about appearing to be vulnerable every now and again.

    Context and experience are important things. I've had kids and young people say they were skint. In the past I've said I was skint. But, being skint and being impoverished are two entirely different things. I still think we have a duty to be better human beings, we can do that by understanding what other human beings are going through. Especially is said human beings are struggling. It's a lot easier to passively 'other' them, if you have no clue what they're going through.

    I suspect it also means, when they get to adulthood, and a wider understanding of these things by default, the groundwork will have been done already, and they won't actively 'other' people who are struggling - or worse still, perpetuate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hmmm...

    It's a narrow path to tread. I can't say I've had any significant mental health problems, so I can't really comment. But, I do speak to people who do, and have asked them about it. I wondered how often things which would not have been counted as a mental health problem, now are because what ever it is, is now classified as such. And that accounts for the rise. Things have got worse, we've just moved the goal posts a wee bit.

    Round our end, we tend not to talk about things in any rigid, planned way. Instead, we make it known that we're open to talk about pretty much anything. We also try to be genuinely friendly, and not be too bothered about appearing to be vulnerable every now and again.

    Context and experience are important things. I've had kids and young people say they were skint. In the past I've said I was skint. But, being skint and being impoverished are two entirely different things. I still think we have a duty to be better human beings, we can do that by understanding what other human beings are going through. Especially is said human beings are struggling. It's a lot easier to passively 'other' them, if you have no clue what they're going through.

    I suspect it also means, when they get to adulthood, and a wider understanding of these things by default, the groundwork will have been done already, and they won't actively 'other' people who are struggling - or worse still, perpetuate it.

    I don't disagree but I think that there needs to be a spark, an intiail point of interest that sets off the discussion.

    So, we are having a session that looks at homelessness. We make tramp stoves - If only a lot of homeless peole had that skill - I actually joke when asked why we do this that it is a skill they may need when they finish their degrees and can't get a job - We sleep in a cardboard box. We then discuss homelessness and there is sagebrush rolling through the hall.

    However, if Smithy walks into the hall and makes some derogatory comment about homeless people, we have a spark, and we can have a discussion that gets quite heated and often very meaningful. This is how we covered sex-ed - one lad called another a man's penis... So, he was asked if he understood that only the male had a penis ( No, don't go there) and there followed a lighthearted but worthwhile discussion.

    We had a similar situation when one lad had a rant about homosexual perverts... The activity they were doing just stopped and they (Explorers) decided to sit around in a circle and discuss the subject. I was quite proud of the way they handled it. They were not abusive, they discussed the matter in a reasoned way - aware that the lad's brother was himself openly homosexual and that the lad was reflecting what arguments had been had at home. * Had I said, right, we are going to talk about gender issues, we would have seen the sagebrush.

    *The discussion ended in hilarity when a skinny little chap got up and walked around the circle to the big lad ranting about perverts and said, "It's okay. We forgive you." And planted a kiss on his cheek. It could have gone either way, but thankfully the big fella couldn't help but laugh.
    Ewan Scott

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    OK, so this months magazine sums this up and proves to me we are far too WOKE. Once we have a picture of some woman stuffing herself with chips, and spinning this as a positive image. Then this proves the point. Mind you fair point with the two disabled guys. But there is no way we should allow those who spin being obese as something positive the time of day, and certainly goes against the great example our chief sets at keeping himself fit.
    Paul Austin
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