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Thread: NA passports and first aid

  1. #76
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    With regard to CPR, the British Heart Foundation training video makes rescue breaths an option. More telling is that it says that doing something - 15,20,30 compressions, 2 rescue breaths or whatever, is better than doing nothing. After all, to all intents and purposes, the patient is dying/dead and doing nothing will only hasten the process.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by boballan View Post
    With regard to CPR, the British Heart Foundation training video makes rescue breaths an option. More telling is that it says that doing something - 15,20,30 compressions, 2 rescue breaths or whatever, is better than doing nothing. After all, to all intents and purposes, the patient is dying/dead and doing nothing will only hasten the process.
    The SJA videos appear to only mention breaths in passing and don't show you how to do them.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    The SJA videos appear to only mention breaths in passing and don't show you how to do them.
    I am not sure which videos we are talking about. The one on SJA.org.uk - on how to perform CPR on an adult - shows how to perform rescue breaths - although it does point out that a person may be untrained or unwilling to perform them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    All they said about it was, that there would be enough oxygen left in an adult's lungs to make rescue breaths redundant. Due to a child's higher matabolism, rescue breaths were still required.

    The trainer went on to say, things come in and out, get dropped or picked up as and when advice and trends dictate.
    I don't see how the oxygen in a persons lungs would last until the arrival of an ambulance. It was the reason given when we changed to starting with chest compressions on an adult as it does not take long to perform 30 compressions. I don't think the child protocol is much to do with metabolism. It is just that they need oxygen like an adult does. The advice to start with rescue breaths in the case of a child as the reason that they have stopped breathing is more likely to be an airway or breathing problem.

    I am not sure that things really "come in and out". Every five years how things are done is reviewed by doctors in the light of any discoveries that have been made etc. If they didn't do this we would still be using Holger Neilson etc.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    I don't see how the oxygen in a persons lungs would last until the arrival of an ambulance. It was the reason given when we changed to starting with chest compressions on an adult as it does not take long to perform 30 compressions. I don't think the child protocol is much to do with metabolism. It is just that they need oxygen like an adult does. The advice to start with rescue breaths in the case of a child as the reason that they have stopped breathing is more likely to be an airway or breathing problem.

    I am not sure that things really "come in and out". Every five years how things are done is reviewed by doctors in the light of any discoveries that have been made etc. If they didn't do this we would still be using Holger Neilson etc.
    Things change.

    Generally speaking though (with maybe the odd exception - like putting butter on a burn) using recent but outdated first aid advice is better than offering no first aid at all. And for those who go on a course every 3 years and do no first aid in between, and have been doing so for many years, there is likely to be confusion as to which is the latest version when, 2 years after a course, they are called upon to give first aid.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    I don't see how the oxygen in a persons lungs would last until the arrival of an ambulance. It was the reason given when we changed to starting with chest compressions on an adult as it does not take long to perform 30 compressions. I don't think the child protocol is much to do with metabolism. It is just that they need oxygen like an adult does. The advice to start with rescue breaths in the case of a child as the reason that they have stopped breathing is more likely to be an airway or breathing problem.

    I am not sure that things really "come in and out". Every five years how things are done is reviewed by doctors in the light of any discoveries that have been made etc. If they didn't do this we would still be using Holger Neilson etc.
    Nope. Or at least that wasn't how the St Andrew's people explained it.

    We're talking about rescue breaths only - so the first two breaths you do before beginning chest compressions. We're not talking about the breaths you do between compressions.

    I asked the same question. If you don't know how long a person has lain and you're not sure if there is any 'air' in their lungs - the answer was, lungs do not fully deflate, even after a person stops breathing, they're somewhat inflated. And, when a person stops breathing, they don't exhale all the way out - and even if they did, again, the lungs still don't fully collapse. So, there is always oxygen in there.

    Also, when you breath, you don't use all the oxygen in the breaths you take anyway, only a tiny amount of it.

    And nope again. A child uses the oxygen in their lungs more quickly than an adult does. And in terms of lung function - a kid's is just a lot better than an adult's, oxygen from the air in their lungs will have been far more effectively used - or so we were told. St Andrew's and Rescus Council (UK) recommend five rescue breaths for paediatric CPR, (aged 1 to puberty).

    We also asked about drowning (and other blockages) - if the lungs were filled with water, wouldn't rescue breaths cause damage? The trainer said no, firstly - they're already in deep trouble, second - there is elasticity in the lungs and third - the point of CPR (apart from reviving a person) is to keep oxygen circulating until paramedics get there who can deal more effectively with what ever caused the person to stop breathing.

    (With other blockages, she said assuming you've gone through the ABC process and couldn't see any blockage - so couldn't see anything to clear - rescue breaths might clear the blockage. If it doesn't, CPR (probably) won't work anyway.)

    And on techniques and steps in processes coming in and out. The St Andrew's trainer we had said exactly that about rescue breaths and the number of chest compressions they teach. A lot of medical techniques are still just best guesses, including some of the things taught in first aid. If it becomes obvious that a step in the process isn't doing anything, it makes sense to take it out to simplify things. (Or add it back in if someone writes a paper in which it's said to be helpful after all). These reviews are happening all the time.

    A disturbing amount of it, is just guess work.
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 13-01-2020 at 09:51 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    I don't see how the oxygen in a persons lungs would last until the arrival of an ambulance
    It wouldn't. Chest compressions also manipulate the lungs and cause inhalation and exhalation, which when compared to a breath of not quite so oxygenated air from someone doing rescue breaths (which is heavy physical activity) is good enough.

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  8. #82
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    The UK Resuscitation Council suggest that:

    "In many adults who suffer a cardiac arrest, the heart stops abruptly; breathing will have been normal (or nearly normal) so the blood should be well oxygenated. In this situation compression-only CPR may be effective for the first few minutes after the heart stops. This may provide time for the emergency services to arrive or an AED to be collected. Ultimately the oxygen will be used up and rescue breaths are required to give the victim the best chance of resuscitation.
    Chest compression alternating with rescue breaths is the ideal first aid procedure."

    It also suggests that most arrests that occur in children are caused by lack of oxygen so compression-only CPR will be much less effective.

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  10. #83
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    Having just done the Red Cross first aid requal yesterday, current advice was start with CPR, then rescue breaths. Ratio of 30-2, 30-2 again and again. Same reasons you outlined there. I would add that they also said it really wouldn’t make a huge difference either way - the key is to just blooming get on with it!.
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    The UK Resuscitation Council suggest that:

    "In many adults who suffer a cardiac arrest, the heart stops abruptly; breathing will have been normal (or nearly normal) so the blood should be well oxygenated. In this situation compression-only CPR may be effective for the first few minutes after the heart stops. This may provide time for the emergency services to arrive or an AED to be collected. Ultimately the oxygen will be used up and rescue breaths are required to give the victim the best chance of resuscitation.
    Chest compression alternating with rescue breaths is the ideal first aid procedure."

    It also suggests that most arrests that occur in children are caused by lack of oxygen so compression-only CPR will be much less effective.
    AESL

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Atb For This Useful Post:

    boballan (15-01-2020),Neil Williams (16-01-2020),SteveF (15-01-2020)

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