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Thread: NA passports and first aid

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    NA passports and first aid

    Hopefully this is useful for Scout and Explorer leaders like me who wonder about the first aid requirements on a NA passport. Iíve just copied the email exchange between me and Gilwell rather than rewrite it all, so sorry if itís a bit long.

    My email to Gilwell:
    The recent nights away passport guidance is useful (https://members.scouts.org.uk/FS120805) but one thing I am unclear about is how this works in practice with POR 9.56.d ("All groups undertaking a nights away event must have immediate access o someone who has a current first aid qualification, minimum First Response"). For a standard camp, not on passport, we'd simply ensure some of the leaders have minimum First Response.


    If a group of Scouts or Explorers are camping on passport, they cannot have adults / leaders overnight on site. Because POR clearly says "immediate" access to first aid, I assume that it wouldn't be possible for the permit holder / another leader (who would be on call and contactable, and have agreed an InTouch plan with the young people) to race to site to give immediate aid unless they were effectively so close as to be on site with the young people.


    This means that presumably the Scouts or Explorers must have a minimum of First Response? And ideally, several would have completed this in the group, otherwise one of the injured might happen to be the one with the qualification. I assume the 9.56.d rule is not waived for a passport camp?

    Some of our Explorers in district get the opportunity to do First Response through the YL training provision. But the information on the website here (https://members.scouts.org.uk/suppor...first-response) specifically says that this "is designed specifically for adults". So does this mean we need to be organising other formal training to see the Scouts and Explorers through the Emergency Aid staged badges. In which case, which level of these would satisfy the need for First Response on site for a NA event on passport?

    Please can I ask you to confirm the situation, and perhaps look into adding clarity to either the NA passport factsheet or the NA faq page?

    Response:
    Thanks for your email, apologies for the delayed response during this busy period.
    As part of the risk assessment for the overnight/expedition you should include making sure that the individuals taking part are proficient in at least the basics of first aid, however, having spoken to the Activities team, they agree that the guidance provided isn't particularly clear on provision of first aid when issuing a nights away passport.
    With that in mind I am passing your email on to the team for consideration as most of our guidance is being reviewed as part of it's move to the new website, so an ideal time to raise that concern - thank you for bringing it to our attention.
    They have advised that, in the meantime, you should include consideration for the young members first aid skills as a part of the risk assessment, and make sure that the adult contact they have is aware of the level of skill in the party to allow them to better assess an incident's urgency if one should arise. They will likely make changes to the guidance in due course but should they share any more advice or information with me I will be sure to pass that on.

    2nd response from Gilwell:
    Apologies for the delay. Andy has covered it pretty well...assessing the risk is key and consider the likelihood of incident based on the potential terrain they are camping in. Emergency First Aid level 4 is pretty close to that expected to be held by a leader and the level 5 is seen as higher than the First Response qualification.
    We will be reviewing the supporting guidance next year (current plan) and will keep your comments about extra clarity.
    AESL

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    Well earlier this term, three of our Scouts went on the expedition for their Expedition Challenge (with a fourth Scout who was from another local Troop). They were issued an NA passport to complete the expedition unaccompanied as the Challenge requires.

    None of them had a First Response certificate but - and I can't speak here for the Scout from the other Troop - our three Scouts all held Emergency Aid Stage 3.

    (I believe that on the Scout website, a First Response certificate is mentioned as being loosely equated to Emergency Aid Stage 4?)

    I should add that the four of them were hiking in Terrain Zero and camping on a recognised Scout campsite.
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    I was always under the impression that you'd need Emergency Aid 4 or 5 in one or more of the attendees (or a proper course if they've done one) - I don't think it's particularly new.

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    ^^ That’s why I asked, as both of those two responses on this thread are perfectly justifiable and sensible from the guidance available. And based on a discussion on another recent thread, either make the guidance and POR clearer if there is something very specific they want us to do, or clearly put in the guidance that it is entirely up to the leaders risk assessment (and therefore TSA would stand by the leaders if an incident should occur)
    AESL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atb View Post
    [
    [
    2nd response from Gilwell:
    Apologies for the delay. Andy has covered it pretty well...assessing the risk is key and consider the likelihood of incident based on the potential terrain they are camping in. Emergency First Aid level 4 is pretty close to that expected to be held by a leader and the level 5 is seen as higher than the First Response qualification.
    We will be reviewing the supporting guidance next year (current plan) and will keep your comments about extra clarity.
    I contacted Gilwell about a year ago asking why they see Level 5 Emergency Aid as higher than First Response, pointing out that I run a combined course. I didn't really understand their logic as the reply said:

    " The reason that the emergency aid stage 5 badge is higher than first response is due to the historic partners that have helped us develop the schemes have historically had different requirements. "

    To me Level 5 is First Response. It seems logical to me to have expect a party without a Leader to have someone in it with a reasonable knowledge of first aid. In my D of E Award days young people had to be "signed off" on first aid prior to their expedition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I was always under the impression that you'd need Emergency Aid 4 or 5 in one or more of the attendees (or a proper course if they've done one) - I don't think it's particularly new.
    Similar here. Which is why I have always insisted that scouts doing a camp on a NAP use a campsite that is staffed over night so that a first aider would be available if they needed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    Similar here. Which is why I have always insisted that scouts doing a camp on a NAP use a campsite that is staffed over night so that a first aider would be available if they needed it.
    I'd say that was debatable as they are unlikely to have immediate access to a member of site crew - it may take several minutes to fetch them, and in some types of first aid incident minutes matter. To me, if it was my Permit it was being issued under (though I'll admit I have only ever issued one once), it would have to be someone actually camping on their site or sleeping in the same building if indoors.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    To me Level 5 is First Response. It seems logical to me to have expect a party without a Leader to have someone in it with a reasonable knowledge of first aid. In my D of E Award days young people had to be "signed off" on first aid prior to their expedition.
    I more see 4 as FR and 5 as the equivalent of the old 2-day/6-evening Red Cross/St John's courses. If you look at the list of the contents that seems to tally, though I will admit the minimum contact times don't.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 24-12-2019 at 06:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post



    I more see 4 as FR and 5 as the equivalent of the old 2-day/6-evening Red Cross/St John's courses. If you look at the list of the contents that seems to tally, though I will admit the minimum contact times don't.

    I am suprised that level 5 misses out heatstroke and shock and then is seen as better than First Response. I think they both suffer from having too much material in the time allowed. The whole point of the "old" two day course to me was that it gave enough time to cover the stuff in more depth and also usually involved an assessment of skills and knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    I am suprised that level 5 misses out heatstroke and shock and then is seen as better than First Response. I think they both suffer from having too much material in the time allowed. The whole point of the "old" two day course to me was that it gave enough time to cover the stuff in more depth and also usually involved an assessment of skills and knowledge.
    While shock isnít mentioned specifically it does mention bleeding. As such Iíve always covered shock under bleeding for stage 3. It just makes sense to do so (plus of course covering how shock can be caused by other forms of fluid loss like diarrhoea)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I'd say that was debatable as they are unlikely to have immediate access to a member of site crew - it may take several minutes to fetch them, and in some types of first aid incident minutes matter. To me, if it was my Permit it was being issued under (though I'll admit I have only ever issued one once), it would have to be someone actually camping on their site or sleeping in the same building if indoors.
    Thats an interesting one. So if it was a normal camp (ie with leaders present) you'd always have your leaders camped that close to your kids? We used to quite often spread the patrols out. One (staffed) site we used, some patrols were probably closer to campsite staff than to our leaders.

    How about on a hike where the Scouts aren't accompanied by leaders? Theres probably just as much risk of a first aid incident (if not more) but would you make sure each group had suitable first aiders walking among them?

    Perhaps there is a real case here for a troop (particularly one that still uses PLs in a fairly traditional way) requiring Scouts to have undertaken First Aid training before being appointed as PLs?


    I more see 4 as FR and 5 as the equivalent of the old 2-day/6-evening Red Cross/St John's courses. If you look at the list of the contents that seems to tally, though I will admit the minimum contact times don't.
    Contact time is a rubbish way of measuring courses!

    A few years ago I completed a full 3-day FAW course. There were only 2 of us on the course, we both had significant previous practical experience in first aid. We rattled through the course in 2 days.

    Equally i've seen first aiders who have done the full 3 days but still seem to have no idea what they're doing!

    - - - Updated - - -

    If TSA are saying Level 4 is equivalent and level 5 is higher than First Response - then surely an explorer acheiving L4 or L5 aged 17, should, when they are 18, be signed off as having completed the first aid module! #devilsadvocate

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    - - - Updated - - -

    If TSA are saying Level 4 is equivalent and level 5 is higher than First Response - then surely an explorer acheiving L4 or L5 aged 17, should, when they are 18, be signed off as having completed the first aid module! #devilsadvocate
    Yes. If an Explorer Scout comes on a First Response then I give them an Emergency Aid Level 5 and if they become a Leader then I am happy to count it as a First Response - as long as it's still within the three year period. I would not do that with Level 4 as there is too much "missing".

    I find it bizzare that the Scout Association will not accept a First Aid at Work as being equivalent toFirst Response but will accept Emergency Aid Level 4 as being.

    I did suggest to Gilwell that as there are those of us who are experienced first aid trainers and also experienced Adult Leaders within the Scout Association it might be nice to involve us in decision making. This went down like a "lead balloon" as I was told that they want a group containing first aid people and Scouting people. I did point out that this means that the group may not contain anyone who has ever delivered a First Response course which may explain quite a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Yes. If an Explorer Scout comes on a First Response then I give them an Emergency Aid Level 5 and if they become a Leader then I am happy to count it as a First Response - as long as it's still within the three year period. I would not do that with Level 4 as there is too much "missing".

    I find it bizzare that the Scout Association will not accept a First Aid at Work as being equivalent toFirst Response but will accept Emergency Aid Level 4 as being.

    I did suggest to Gilwell that as there are those of us who are experienced first aid trainers and also experienced Adult Leaders within the Scout Association it might be nice to involve us in decision making. This went down like a "lead balloon" as I was told that they want a group containing first aid people and Scouting people. I did point out that this means that the group may not contain anyone who has ever delivered a First Response course which may explain quite a lot.

    When one hears of paramedics being forced to sit through a first response course, what hope is there for those with FAW qualifications?

    The real issue of course, as with many things, is that its not applied evenly across the board. One local training manager might accept an FAW, while another might not.

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    In a way I understand Paramedics and other medical professionals having to do first aid training.
    What they do isnít first aid, before the roars of outrage, they are highly trained professionals who in their day job have a wealth of equipment to save lives, they wonít necessarily have their big metal first aid kit with the blue flashing lights with them on scout camp.
    Many years ago in training I and 29 of my comrades all passed the Combat Medical Assistant course and the next day we all sat and failed the Battle First Aid Course, as we answered all the questions as Combat Medics not soldiers which meant we gave chose to give treatments that we wouldnít necessarily be carrying the kit to do.



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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    When one hears of paramedics being forced to sit through a first response course, what hope is there for those with FAW qualifications?

    The real issue of course, as with many things, is that its not applied evenly across the board. One local training manager might accept an FAW, while another might not.
    Agree with this, and it's been my experience that it is the case across all Scout training. It really doesn't matter what your background is - you're doing the Scout training anyway - then, you can get validated, (maybe). As an organisation, Scouts must be up there as being the most snobby and inflexible when it comes to it's own training requirements.

    I'd also suggest, saying paramedics (specifically) need to do the first response training because at work they have all sorts of equipment they wouldn't have at camp (say), is probably a wee bit of an imposition as ideas go. They're not daft so probably know what they do or don't have. I'd much rather have a paramedic with no equipment tend to an injured party than someone who's sat through an afternoon of First Response and nothing else.

    Outside of Scouting, I don't carry a first aid kit or defib around with me either - so even with first aid training, I'd be winging it. We also thought a lot of the dressings covered - while handy and good to know (be prepared and all that stuff) - in the real world, you'd never actually do, because the circumstances would rarely warrant it.

    (I'm also not 100% sold on the notion that GP's are completely inept when it comes to first aid either.)

    On FAW versus SFA (First Aid for Work versus Standard First Aid - both from St Andrews). I've done both. FAW I did a while ago, I don't remember there being any paediatric training in there - there was in SFA. Otherwise, the only (main) difference was an exceedingly boring section on H&S legislation and COSHH stuff in FAW.

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    In a life beforeScouts I had a GP refuse to be a first wider for an event as she was not qualified.


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