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Thread: HQ Job Cuts

  1. #106
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    "If you can't evidence that you did it, did you actually do it?"

    Did you have an RA for Duch-Duck-Goose?

    Did you allow for Smithy running into the wall?
    Ewan Scott

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  2. #107
    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Did you have an RA for Duch-Duck-Goose?

    Did you allow for Smithy running into the wall?
    https://www.h-f.co.uk/knowledge/vica...tion-v-barnes/

    The interesting bit I always find is this...."The court held that the modification of the game so that it was played in the dark, did not add any social or educational value to the game, it therefore did not justify the additional foreseeable risks."

    This appears to support the line that seeing, evaluating and accepting a risk in trade off for a benefit is an appropriate way to consider them

  3. #108
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    https://www.h-f.co.uk/knowledge/vica...tion-v-barnes/

    The interesting bit I always find is this...."The court held that the modification of the game so that it was played in the dark, did not add any social or educational value to the game, it therefore did not justify the additional foreseeable risks."

    This appears to support the line that seeing, evaluating and accepting a risk in trade off for a benefit is an appropriate way to consider them

    But the question is, if TSA is to mandate RA, where is it going to draw the line?

    I was talking to a lady who runs a youth club in another village. They had taken all the measures they needed - First Aid, and DBS... They are just concerned parents, helping out. Just as many Scout Leaders are. I know of another youth group that closed down when the council started advising them on the realities of safety... I am trying to make sure that the Youth Cafe we are trying to set up starts off on the right footing with the right support in place - to avoid such an event.

    Unless TSA, or any Scout Association, handles the management of RA very carefully, there is going to be a contraction in the number of people willing to take on the roles. It is hard enough already and I have personal experience of volunteers trying to avoid doing even the basic training. I know of people who have recruited and unless the volunteer asked about training they were not told until their feet were under the table. Tell them they need to complete a written RA for everything they do and another barrier gets put in the way.

    The huge problem is that TSA trainers, IMHE, tend to stray from the script and colour the training with their own personal views. I guess it happens most places though. I have an external Safeguarding course coming up. It will be interesting to see how this professional trainer operates. Will they stick to the script, or will they go off on their own personal issues. ( Mine would be mental abuse - as it tends to get ignored as it is hard to prove and social services don't have the resources to handle the cases.)
    Ewan Scott

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    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post

    The warden later had a word with me about interfering with other instructors. I could put my hand on my heart and say, I didn't.

    The same campsite kept bows strung and under tension in a damp shed. At least one was delaminating and dangerous (it was until I saw it).
    Two pet hates there:

    1. "Health and safety is EVERYBODY's responsibility" is an attitude that should be encouraged. If you spot genuine unsafe practice you should be allowed to feel confident to act, even if you're not the instructor running the session. The warden should have supported, not undermined, you.

    2. Campsites do seem to have a horrible way of storing expensive equipment. I've lost track of how many times i've found pioneering kit in a shameful state - often with poles rotting away in a damp, uncovered, racking area behind the toilet block, and ropes thrown in a tangle in a box. The site who issued us with grass sledges whose brake blocks had worn away completely was another example. If there aren't volunteers or staff available to service equipment, they shouldnt offer it. (Brings us back to valuing what we do - maybe campsites equipment hire prices need to cover the cost of getting someone in to maintain it!)

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    Straying from the script on training or other meetings (work or scouting related) for that matter I always find interesting. That's where I seem to learn most about any activity including the risks.
    + I find recently locally we have a lot of risk assessments but few reviews after the event to learn the lessons

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deekjcornwell View Post
    Straying from the script on training or other meetings (work or scouting related) for that matter I always find interesting. That's where I seem to learn most about any activity including the risks.
    + I find recently locally we have a lot of risk assessments but few reviews after the event to learn the lessons
    Ah, but I would put it this way. There is/ should be a script so that everyone gets the same message. That is the training element that must/ should be followed. It must/ should not be varied from. That establishes a set standard to which we all aspire.

    The post-training discussion can cover all the per aspects of the subject. The anecdotes, the experiences - and yes, you may pick up something more from that than from the scripted training, but the foundation is in the script. Instead, we have trainers who have a script but interlace it with their own anecdotes, which tends to focus the training on specific areas of THEIR experience, rather than the overll coverge they are supposed to be offering.

    It is like a French teacher regaling the class with tales of her experiences in France as a student. It may colour the lesson, it may spark some interest in some people, but it does not strengthen the understanding of the construction of a sentence in French.
    Ewan Scott

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  8. #112
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Two pet hates there:

    1. "Health and safety is EVERYBODY's responsibility" is an attitude that should be encouraged. If you spot genuine unsafe practice you should be allowed to feel confident to act, even if you're not the instructor running the session. The warden should have supported, not undermined, you.
    I was running a pioneering section at a camp. A number of leaders thought a bridge was unsafe - we had done it the same way in the same place many, many times. I took on board their comments and we put in a safety rope, and they were happy. Not an issue. Sometimes other people don't see things as we see them.

    On the other hand, I saw scouts using the back of a felling axe to try and smash pallets up for a campfire ( let's not go into the pallets on campfire thing) - With every swing, the axe was bouncing back at the operator. I walked over and asked them if that was the best way to break up a pallet? Blank expressions.

    I pointed out the construction of the pallet and how by trying to break it they were working against its construction, trying to overcome its inbuilt resistance to breaking. So, I took a mallet they had lying around and knocked part ofthe pallet apart from the opposite direction. Less effort and a bit safer than having the sharp end of an axe flying back at you, is it not? The Scouts all agreed, reluctantly. A couple of hours later an angry Skip came over and remonstrated with me for interfering with what his Scouts were doing...

    I had that effect. I stopped Scouts from throwing stones onto the roof of a building on a campsite. I mentioned it to their SL, who didn't seem to think it was a problem and went off in a huff...

    At another event we were running archery and the same people who had complained about my "safe" bridge, were running a bridge as part of a mini assault course. It was only a metre off the ground and the safety rope they had put in place was a dynamic climbing rope... just enough flex to allow anyone falling to hit the ground hard enough to hurt. I looked at it, and asked "Really? Do you think that is safe?" They reckoned so... so I walked on. I think I was starting to learn the "scouting way" by then...
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  9. #113
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    I once had a very cross helper from another group on a camping competition that i was running complain to everybody who would listen that it was really dangerous that i had not provided lighting in the field for the scouts to set up camp by. (Friday night at end of september.) he worked on the railway and would never allow anyhting so dangerous to happen and wanted to see my risk assessment. (There wasn't one... it was a big flat field and each group had leaders with them)

    On saturday afternoon he was teaching a young leader from his group to play splits* with a sheaf knife. "what the hell are you doing?" were my first words.

    *also known as 'split the kipper'

  10. #114
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    Two points i've picked up reading through the last page

    My understanding of H&SE (at least at work) is that if you spot something dangerous or being done in a dangerous manner you have an obligation to report it, you shouldn't ignore it.

    If we really go down the RA rabbit hole that requires them to be sent in along with NAN to the DC i can see a lot of issues. DC's aren't trained to assess them so will initially be very cautious and a lot of activities that are probably fine will get either stopped or more information requested and we'll just tie everything up in a maze of paperwork with no real benefit.

    Our current DC is already stating he is being swamped by the admin side of the job and without the help he has through the County Secretary he wouldn't have taken it on. This will only get worse if he has to approve more.

    Of course this will only affect the Leaders that follow the rules, those that don't read the updates or can't be bothered will just carry on as before.
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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  12. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    I once had a very cross helper from another group on a camping competition that i was running complain to everybody who would listen that it was really dangerous that i had not provided lighting in the field for the scouts to set up camp by. (Friday night at end of september.) he worked on the railway and would never allow anyhting so dangerous to happen and wanted to see my risk assessment. (There wasn't one... it was a big flat field and each group had leaders with them)
    The railway is utterly risk averse (it doesn't consider risk-benefit to any great extent, it just seeks to eliminate risk entirely) and basically has unlimited funding to be so, so isn't a good model for us.

    On saturday afternoon he was teaching a young leader from his group to play splits* with a sheaf knife. "what the hell are you doing?" were my first words.

    *also known as 'split the kipper'
    Wow.

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    Not wishing to seem flippant. But I thought one of the main reasons to go to jamborettes and activities with other groups was to tut at how other groups do things. It's part of the whole Scouting experience.

    Part of the joy of scouting is finding a troop or pack that does things exactly the way you do - it's a meeting of like minds. Then, you can both look down your nose at what others are doing. It's akin to looking over the fence to see what the neighbours are doing.

    I think the only time I've ever spoken to Scouts that were not my own, was when they were being racist toward me. They looked to their leader for support, but he just shook his head, told them I was a leader and that they deserved it.

    I'm absolutely positive it's us that probably get funny looks from other leaders. I remember being on summer camp at Fordell Firs. It was a typical wet August week in Fife, so a medium-sized puddle had formed in the middle of the field. I poked my head out the marquee to check the kids, and they were all to a one in their pants and in this minging stagnant puddle. Two Scouts (from Liverpool) wandered past, one asked the other - "is that even allowed?"

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  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    At another event we were running archery and the same people who had complained about my "safe" bridge, were running a bridge as part of a mini assault course. It was only a metre off the ground and the safety rope they had put in place was a dynamic climbing rope... just enough flex to allow anyone falling to hit the ground hard enough to hurt. I looked at it, and asked "Really? Do you think that is safe?" They reckoned so... so I walked on. I think I was starting to learn the "scouting way" by then...
    That, if people stuck to the rules, has sort of been solved because a safety rope of that nature is Temporary High Ropes, so you need to have the skills to set up a Tyrolean and be assessed for a relevant Climbing Permit (or have an operating manual signed off) to do that now. Pioneering otherwise needs to be safe enough for use without any form of belay, which might involve it being low enough or might involve other protection e.g. a rope bridge being set up with a net instead of the traditional three ropes.

  16. #118
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    The railway is utterly risk averse (it doesn't consider risk-benefit to any great extent, it just seeks to eliminate risk entirely) and basically has unlimited funding to be so, so isn't a good model for us.
    It also still has enough rules and regulations that a work-to-rule would bring the whole network to a halt.

    My eldest was felling trees on a stretch of the West Coast mainline, just outside a station. A train departing from the station pulled up and stopped. It sat for over an hour... The supervisor of the work party had not been wearing his identifying blue armband. It took Network Rail an hour to identify him and suspend the whole team. None of the people on that team were able to work for that contrctor whilst the investigation into the lack of a blue armband was considered...

    Of course, the driver was correct, the work party might have been unsupervised and that could have been dangerous.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    It also still has enough rules and regulations that a work-to-rule would bring the whole network to a halt.
    In some ways that's similar to us. We don't just need better compliance, we need to go through POR with a fine-toothed comb and take out all the rubbish that nobody complies with because it actually has no benefit. There is some ridiculous stuff in there - is that one still there about requiring permission to be sought from the DC for a non-British Citizen YP to join?

    And we need fewer "woolly" rules like 9.1. If we do feel that DC approval is needed for some activities, it needs to state which ones, not just have people ignore it because it doesn't make sense to ring the DC to ask before playing Bulldog. Which, funnily enough, it used to, didn't it? It used to require permission for activities away from the normal meeting place? And there needs to be a standard, formal process for such approval. Informal approvals don't work; they may as well not exist because they can't be evidenced properly.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 12-02-2020 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    https://www.h-f.co.uk/knowledge/vica...tion-v-barnes/

    The interesting bit I always find is this...."The court held that the modification of the game so that it was played in the dark, did not add any social or educational value to the game, it therefore did not justify the additional foreseeable risks."

    This appears to support the line that seeing, evaluating and accepting a risk in trade off for a benefit is an appropriate way to consider them
    Without a word of a lie, I walked into the hut one evening having been delayed due to work, to find the Cub leader (who lived locally and had agreed to cover until I got there) running Ladders. Itself a game that makes me shudder and reach for the first aid kit.

    However, in order to ensure "progression" from how it was played at Cubs, they had decided it would be a good idea to play the game with the lights off

    I very very quickly put a stop to the game.

    My assistant section leader was out in the kit store prepping for the main activity. The section assistant who was helping with the game later told me they had felt very uncomfortable with the risk of the game, but hadn't felt confident challenging the relatively experienced CSL.

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