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Thread: New NAN form with requirement for written risk assessment

  1. #1
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    New NAN form with requirement for written risk assessment

    Also new InTouch and Terrain Zero factsheets

    See
    https://members.scouts.org.uk/activitiesupdates


    TSA should REALLY make these important changes clearer in their comms.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also the new form is full of typos and the usual TSA internal contradictions / ambiguities

  2. #2
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    Hmmm...

    I'm sure my Scouts will enjoy and appreciate perusing the risk assessment and offer informed and incisive feedback on it.

    Always bearing in mind that the NAN form is most assuredly not a permission form from the DC.

    Nope. No sireee....
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 07-04-2020 at 09:13 PM.

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    Our DC had sent out an email (just before the lockdown) saying she wanted RAs with the NANs. Wed already changed how we go about expedition planning so its not going to be an issue for us.
    What were doing now-
    As part of the route planning we are getting the explorers to write descriptions of the routes on stickies and include them on to the maps. These should read as a route description allowing them to recognise features. Picked this up from an ML who posted on a Facebook group I read.
    Use software like FATMAPS (other options available, google maps arent that good for it though). Allows us to fly the route on screen and show them what they are likely to see.
    Go through the RAs, talking through the points and getting them to raise anything we havent covered.

    How well this is going to work remains to be seen. I think it will take a few iterations for them to adapt fully to it.

    Just seen pa_broons post. Im fortunate in that Ive got explorers not scouts and as they get older they tend to get why we are doing it. I expect the younger ones will struggle at first.
    Last edited by Big George; 07-04-2020 at 09:15 PM.

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    The most annoying thing is all this nonsense comes out because 4 leaders from 1 group acted like incompetent egits ran their activity appallingly!
    --
    Dan Sheehan
    Group Scout Leader
    9th Muswell Hill Scout Group

    District Training Adviser
    District Executive Member
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    North London District Scouts

    web: www.9thmuswellhill.org.uk
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    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Sorry but that is the last NA event I will be organising - the requirements are stupid (in my view because the Scouts will ignore a huge wodge of paperwork and the other leaders only there to cater will be swamped). It would mean I have to have confirmed attendees early enough to submit the NAN and then would not be able to accept a late entry.
    As a leader I can not be trusted (obviously) to do proper risk assessments and manage them dynamically as circumstances change so I no longer feel valued.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    They may as well just get rid of Nights Away Permits if they are going to require so much info in advance of each NA event anyway

    I don't see why the young people involved in a NA activity need to have the risk assessment communicated to them. They need relevant control measures communicating to them where its something they have to do e.g. don't go out of this area, axes and saws to only be used in a properly marked out chopping area etc etc. They don't need to know that there is a risk of food poisoning so food has to be stored correctly and the chemical toilets and human waste pit need positioning away from and down wind of the food storage tent etc etc. Its irrelevant to them as the adults running the camp will ensure that happens (ok unless its a passport camp when they would need to know these things)

    I really can't see the Beavers understanding a risk assesment for the sleepover. They just need the simple rules of what they are and are not allowed to do in order to keep them safe explaining to them but apparently that would not actually satisfy that tick box

    This is yet another example of a poorly thought through and worded "rule" from TSA. The wording should have been something more like "I confirm that all risk assesments and control measures, relevant to their role on the Night Away event, have been shared with adults and that control measures and/or safety rules have been communicated clearly, and appropriately for their ages, to all the youth members participating in the Nights Away event.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 07-04-2020 at 10:14 PM.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Previous Scouting Roles
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    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    I've only skimmed them but it seems the onus is now very much on the Leader in Charge to make sure that RA and other requirements are in place and for the DC to approve the activity/event.

    Seems even terrain zero the DC is supposed to approve activities.

    I can see issues where DC tries to micromanage and gets swamped with emails from everyone saying please approve my activity outside the hut so shuts down everything, or arbitrarily refuses permission because they don't get on with the Leader or disapprove of the activity.

    I agree with John, the NAN seems to be asking more unanswerable questions especially around confirming that YP have seen and understand the risk assessments. Its also a pain we still have to list adults & member numbers that in all likelyhood will change between submitting the NAN and the camp. I'm not sure what purpose it serves.

    My NA Permit expired during this lockdown, i'm wondering now whether to bother renewing it.

    I understand the reason we need to tighten up procedures but this seems to have been rushed through.
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post

    I understand the reason we need to tighten up procedures but this seems to have been rushed through.
    Evidenced by the presence of at least two spelling errors I noted on my first read through!
    --
    Dan Sheehan
    Group Scout Leader
    9th Muswell Hill Scout Group

    District Training Adviser
    District Executive Member
    District Appointment Advisory Comittee
    North London District Scouts

    web: www.9thmuswellhill.org.uk
    twitter: @9thMuswellHill
    facebook: /9thmuswellhill

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    Glad I'm not in TSA any more.

    I had all of the required info when running camps, but that didn't mean things wouldn't change. A menu might change when the supermarket doesn't have a required item, a programme might change for many reasons. Adults might sign up or drop out last minute. Many a time an extra adult, known to the group and with a valid scout dbs check, would end up dropping in for a coffee and end up staying the night.

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    So we are back at Form PC again, pretty much!

    That being the case, why not abolish Nights Away Permits? They reduce activities by being a faff to get, and I have for a while now believed returning to (at least an option of) the Form PC system would result in more events.

    Also, clearly nobody proof read it as they can't spell "menu"!

    Re T0 factsheet there always was one though I can't recall what was in the old one. However that has errors as well - you don't necessarily need "InTouch personnel" - that should say "InTouch system".

    They really do need to go back to the review process that was used during Wayne's tenure and stop putting stuff out unreviewed.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 08-04-2020 at 06:15 AM.

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    Do we reckon, by the way, that this was an attempt to "bury bad news" behind the good announcement regarding OSM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I don't see why the young people involved in a NA activity need to have the risk assessment communicated to them. They need relevant control measures communicating to them where its something they have to do e.g. don't go out of this area, axes and saws to only be used in a properly marked out chopping area etc etc.
    Hence the clear distinction between 'sharing' the RA with the DC, and 'communicating' it to adults and young people. That isn't a requirement to share the RA with Beavers, it's a requirement to tell Beavers that if they go too close they might get whacked by an axe so they don't go past this rope.

    I read this thread before reading the stuff on the website, so I tackled the new SA stuff with trepidation. And saw a couple of typos. Ho hum.
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
    Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    Hence the clear distinction between 'sharing' the RA with the DC, and 'communicating' it to adults and young people. That isn't a requirement to share the RA with Beavers, it's a requirement to tell Beavers that if they go too close they might get whacked by an axe so they don't go past this rope.

    I read this thread before reading the stuff on the website, so I tackled the new SA stuff with trepidation. And saw a couple of typos. Ho hum.
    It seems it's been rushed out before furloughing a load of staff, from what I can see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    Hence the clear distinction between 'sharing' the RA with the DC, and 'communicating' it to adults and young people. That isn't a requirement to share the RA with Beavers, it's a requirement to tell Beavers that if they go too close they might get whacked by an axe so they don't go past this rope.
    But there is no qualification on the requirement to communicate the risk assesment (NB who the hell only has one risk assesment for an entire NA event?), so according to that wording we have to communicate the entire risk assement to the young people. Its very badly worded, which would have been picked up on had they had even a very quick review process.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 08-04-2020 at 08:10 AM.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    This was all preplanned from before lock down, when Gt Orme was still fresh..
    If you think this is bad, the utter fustercluck is yet to come, the long awaited @Home NA stuff. I would call it guidance, but it doesn't deserve that title...

    ** Warning ** I like my humour Very DRY, same as my Martinis, so don't take anything personally..

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