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Thread: New NAN form with requirement for written risk assessment

  1. #16
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    Obviously no-one can do NAs at the moment, but people will be planning future camps (and using the downtime to set up online versions of the NA form etc) - so for such a fundamental change the monthly member newsletter really ought to state plainly "there is a new Nights Away form" rather than using more general wording and relying on people clicking through.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    Sorry but that is the last NA event I will be organising - the requirements are stupid (in my view because the Scouts will ignore a huge wodge of paperwork and the other leaders only there to cater will be swamped). It would mean I have to have confirmed attendees early enough to submit the NAN and then would not be able to accept a late entry.
    As a leader I can not be trusted (obviously) to do proper risk assessments and manage them dynamically as circumstances change so I no longer feel valued.
    It's so full of contradictions, I'd leave it a while and read it in the cold light of day. It doesn't mean you can't add people in at the last minute, that hasn't changed. And there's nothing there that you shouldn't have been doing already no? Well almost. Plus there's definitely nothing to say that you can't change things if necessary or you mustn't do any dynamic risk assessments. I guess it's nice if HQ value you, and I'm sure they do*, but surely being valued by Da Kids that's the main thing. You know the values and benefits of camping.

    * You know this isn't about whether they value you, this is about the death of an Explorer Scout.

    But it is a steaming pile of horse plop of an update. I mean, let's not quibble over spelling mistakes, but it's indicative, I mean, it's a word document, surely it's harder to spell something wrong than correct it? Anyway...

    It's like that risk assessment box at the bottom has been added without any thought to the rest of the document. It says at the top...

    events the information below should be with your Commissioner (or appointee) 7 days before the event (in normal circumstances)
    Then in the risk assessment box it says...

    As part of the planning and preparation for the nights away activity the following documentation should be in place: programmes, attendance information, medical and emergency contact information for attendees, InTouch system, menues and written risk assessments.
    You are not required to provide all of this information to your Commissioner with this form, but should be available upon request by the Commissioner or their delegate.

    Does the "information below" mean "programmes, attendance information, medical and emergency contact information for attendees, InTouch system, menues and written risk assessments." or just the information on the actual form? I think they mean the latter, because "You are not required to provide all of this information to your Commissioner with this form".

    Then, talking of "You are not required to provide all of this information to your Commissioner with this form"
    with the very next sentence...

    I confirm the written risk assessment for this nights away activity has been shared with the responsible Commissioner or their delegate
    So can I just leave that unticked then? Because I can do the written risk assessment, no problem, and it tells me I don't have to provide it, so I won't until asked for it. Seems legit.

    Then the peach...

    I confirm that the risk assessment has been communicated to both adults and young people involved in the event in order for them to understand the risks and how these will be managed
    Note the tense. Has. So at the point of submitting the NAN form, 7 days in advance, you will have already sent your risk assessment to everyone going? Nope, won't be ticking that one either. It makes no sense. I mean, as many of you have said, sending a Beaver the written risk assessment isn't going to work is it? But even if you wrote "be careful of the fire" in nice friendly letters, what's the point in telling the beaver two weeks in advance?

    HQ sorely need a QA department that reads this really important and fundamental stuff before it goes out. We all know this is a knee jerk because of Great Orme, they have to respond to the "20 points" of the coroner, and I guess they think this answers some of those.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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  4. #18
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    This also puts DC's in an awkward position.

    Obviously people at HQ do their thinking in a perfect scout bubble. All this is going to do is force more scouters (at all levels) to ignore stupid rules.

    A NAN form with no membership numbers, or a camp that didn't have all the leaders who were on the form in attendance, or vice versa...

    But then, we knew this would happen. Yes, it's because four leaders let things get away from them. But it's also a reaction by TSA. These were all choices. Instead of dealing with the substantive issue, they've gone for a knee jerk, shallow response that'll do nothing except make following the rules yet more onerous and for no practical reason.

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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Note the tense. Has. So at the point of submitting the NAN form, 7 days in advance, you will have already sent your risk assessment to everyone going? Nope, won't be ticking that one either. It makes no sense. I mean, as many of you have said, sending a Beaver the written risk assessment isn't going to work is it? But even if you wrote "be careful of the fire" in nice friendly letters, what's the point in telling the beaver two weeks in advance?
    Good point I hadn't even picked up on the issue of the timings required by the tense used. I would never give a safety briefing to particpicants until the start of an event or activity. I think we are all going to have to try and point out the flaws in this form to HQ via the info centre and see if we can't at least get the wording amended so the process actually makes some sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I can see they are really benefiting from having got rid of the volunteer technical advisors who would have definitely picked up on the issues with this form had they still been in position and been consulted.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I can see they are really benefiting from having got rid of the volunteer technical advisors who would have definitely picked up on the issues with this form had they still been in position and been consulted.
    And they say it's difficult to pick up on sarcasm in the written word.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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  10. #21
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    With scouting effectively stopped during the covid19 pandemic, how many members will see this as this as an opportunity to leave?
    How many leaders will drop out, as the habit of the weekly meeting is no more?

  11. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    With scouting effectively stopped during the covid19 pandemic, how many members will see this as this as an opportunity to leave?
    How many leaders will drop out, as the habit of the weekly meeting is no more?
    Well, I was going to be stepping down as GSL in the summer, but I think I will probably agree to carry on until Christmas to restart the Group properly. So not everyone. Still not quite sure what next, though I'm sure there will be something.

    But yes, as a whole I think a lot of people will see this as a "life reboot" - a chance for a few months off literally everything to work out what's important in your life, what's missing and what's not.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 08-04-2020 at 09:57 AM.

  12. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    With scouting effectively stopped during the covid19 pandemic, how many members will see this as this as an opportunity to leave?
    How many leaders will drop out, as the habit of the weekly meeting is no more?
    I donít think we will lose that many. When Iíve changed activities when one stops something else fills its place. At the moment I donít have any activities to fill in the time I would use for scouting. Unless scouting delays itís restart past when I can do other things Iím not likely to stop. (Sitting watching tv does not count as as another activity)

  13. #24
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    Well i can see a few more issues one quite major.

    Ticking box for Risk assessments.
    I have uploaded them all to our website (or private FB group) and emailed out the link to participants via OSM/Compass & cc to DC, so i have made you aware, tick box.
    Oh sorry you never received it as you can't be bothered to update your email address or your email inbox is full or it got sent to spam.
    Oh you couldn't be bothered to read the emails/information or can't understand it.
    Sorry not my fault i have sent it and ticked the box.

    DC approving NA
    Camp all booked, fees & coaches paid for, food ordered etc. NAN sent in with all required paperwork at least 7 days prior as required.
    DC refuses to approve so camp has to be cancelled or do you run without permission and thus outside of TSA?
    Who picks up the tab for the costs and responds to angry parents?
    I know where i would be sending bill and the blame.

    Extreme scenario but could happen especially where there are issues between a group and district.

    Glad i'm not a DC
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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  15. #25
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    DCs hopefully aren't going to be saying "I refuse" on a blanket basis - if they would they should be revoking NAPs. It'd be more like "can you explain more about this?" or "could you change this?"

  16. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post

    Extreme scenario but could happen especially where there are issues between a group and district.

    Glad i'm not a DC
    I suspect this will cause issues between groups and DC's

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  18. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    Well i can see a few more issues one quite major.

    Ticking box for Risk assessments.
    I have uploaded them all to our website (or private FB group) and emailed out the link to participants via OSM/Compass & cc to DC, so i have made you aware, tick box.
    Oh sorry you never received it as you can't be bothered to update your email address or your email inbox is full or it got sent to spam.
    Oh you couldn't be bothered to read the emails/information or can't understand it.
    Sorry not my fault i have sent it and ticked the box.

    DC approving NA
    Camp all booked, fees & coaches paid for, food ordered etc. NAN sent in with all required paperwork at least 7 days prior as required.
    DC refuses to approve so camp has to be cancelled or do you run without permission and thus outside of TSA?
    Who picks up the tab for the costs and responds to angry parents?
    I know where i would be sending bill and the blame.

    Extreme scenario but could happen especially where there are issues between a group and district.

    Glad i'm not a DC
    I've seen similar happen... A dc cancelling a camp because they thought it wasn't being well run, rather than insisting on changes. Fortunately it was at a local site with parent transport so costs were very low.... If it had been a week long summer camp on the isle of Wight with minibuses hired, ferries booked, campsite paid, etc it could well have caused major financial issues for the group.

    I'd hope fr most dcs cancelling an event would be the last resort. But ultimately they need to know that they would be willing to do so if the event was impossible to run safely

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  20. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I've seen similar happen... A dc cancelling a camp because they thought it wasn't being well run, rather than insisting on changes. Fortunately it was at a local site with parent transport so costs were very low.... If it had been a week long summer camp on the isle of Wight with minibuses hired, ferries booked, campsite paid, etc it could well have caused major financial issues for the group.

    I'd hope fr most dcs cancelling an event would be the last resort. But ultimately they need to know that they would be willing to do so if the event was impossible to run safely
    Unfortunately, it'll have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with it not satisfying some esoteric tick box in a creaking, unfit for purpose bureaucracy.

    I still can't get past the reality - given how people are recruited - that a volunteer at district level is any better or more qualified to ensure activities are safe, than a volunteer at group level.

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  22. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hmmm...

    I'm sure my Scouts will enjoy and appreciate perusing the risk assessment and offer informed and incisive feedback on it.

    Always bearing in mind that the NAN form is most assuredly not a permission form from the DC.

    Nope. No sireee....
    I assume that you do an RA for all activities at present and share the relevant mitigations and fallbacks with everyone on the activity? If not why not? This is no more onerous, you'll brief the written RA not ask them to read it and test them on it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I've seen similar happen... A dc cancelling a camp because they thought it wasn't being well run, rather than insisting on changes. Fortunately it was at a local site with parent transport so costs were very low.... If it had been a week long summer camp on the isle of Wight with minibuses hired, ferries booked, campsite paid, etc it could well have caused major financial issues for the group.

    I'd hope fr most dcs cancelling an event would be the last resort. But ultimately they need to know that they would be willing to do so if the event was impossible to run safely
    I cannot imagine cancelling a camp woudl be done unless there were very serious safety or safeguarding concerns, in which case I'd expect the group to pick up the costs as they should have been detected long before.

  23. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    I assume that you do an RA for all activities at present and share the relevant mitigations and fallbacks with everyone on the activity? If not why not? This is no more onerous, you'll brief the written RA not ask them to read it and test them on it.
    I think he's picking up on the very poorly worded nature of it - what you want to share with those who are attending is not the RA but the control measures. The RA would only come out if a control measure gets debated or asked about as evidence of it being required.

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