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Thread: Terrain Zero activities

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Training along those lines (I think) is required. Managing groups is not something a lot of people are automatically good at.
    Fundamentally we need more relevant training and less parrot-fashion regurgitation of stuff that should just be (and is) on the website.

    Relevant training needs to be done BEFORE doing the thing it trains you for. So absolutely none of ours, except the repeatable stuff and Nights Away, is anything of the sort.

    It's by far the biggest problem in my view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Fundamentally we need more relevant training and less parrot-fashion regurgitation of stuff that should just be (and is) on the website.

    Relevant training needs to be done BEFORE doing the thing it trains you for. So absolutely none of ours, except the repeatable stuff and Nights Away, is anything of the sort.

    It's by far the biggest problem in my view.
    Agreed.

    I still don't know why we don't have some sort of apprentice-type scheme were groups who have well-ran sections can have new leaders down for a preset length of time to learn the ropes before they're let loose on their own.

    I know it wouldn't be possible for specific groups to constantly have strange people down observing or what ever, but could some sort of program not be worked out along these lines? Same with nights away, (although I still think if you want to be a section leader, this should be a prerequisite. It's a bit like a cowboy deciding they're not going to ride a horse.)

    The other issue we've found is, with new leaders - there's the party line then reality. New leaders should spend more time with existing leaders and not commissioners (those who've never led before). They invariably give a skewed version of what leadership is. It's a wee bit like the driving test. You learn to pass the test, then you get out on the road and learn to drive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I wasn't talking about water definitions. That's not a part of Terrain anything, as far as I know. And I'm not talking about definitions, there would be no defining anything, just info on what risks there are for specific areas.

    It's also been mentioned elsewhere (on here) about new leaders assuming because they've been camping with family, they'll be alright camping with scouts. I think the same can be said about going out for a walk, anywhere really. Going with your wife and two kids is not the same as going with 20 kids and a couple of assistants.

    Training along those lines (I think) is required. Managing groups is not something a lot of people are automatically good at.
    This would cause heart attacks - but back in the day when you had to send your camp location, programme and menu to the DC of the area to which you were to visit, the home DC would be able to warn you off areas in which there were dangers as well as spot issues with the site you might be camping on (for example we were warned to change camp site on one camp because of flooding issues which the local Scouts were aware, but the farmer had neglected to tell us.

    In passing I'm sure there'd be great resistance to going back to those days which were changed, I believe, as it put too much load on the DC. However I'd observe that the number camps and their duration in the 90's when this rule was last enforced were far greater than today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    In passing I'm sure there'd be great resistance to going back to those days which were changed, I believe, as it put too much load on the DC. However I'd observe that the number camps and their duration in the 90's when this rule was last enforced were far greater than today.
    I'm strongly of the view that the NA Permit Scheme has contributed to a reduced number of camps. If we're going back the Form PC way of having to submit detail and have that approved, why not bin it off?

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    I remember the old days and notification of the DC, I also remember hardly ever doing it. I do remember being visited by DC's at a couple of summer camps. I think going back to that has it the wrong way round. I remember back in the day DC's being figureheads of sorts (where we are anyway). They almost always didn't have a background in Scouting, but were notables of some sort or another. They wouldn't have been able to advise on camp sites (etc) even if they wanted to. (It's much different now, they're usually ex-leaders, but even that's not always useful).

    I think leaders who want to run camps just need to be trained properly. That way they wouldn't have to rely (so much) on local info from DC's etc. I still think an info sheet for districts around terrain would be useful. A searchable database so if leaders wanted to go up such-and-such a hill or walk a particular route, they could appraise themselves of any local conditions.

    On NA permit scheme? I think it's rubbish. Purely because we can't get the people to fill the roles so there tends to be little in the way of quality control. There's no point in having a system which is supposed to guarantee minimum standards if those standards don't apply to the system itself.

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    There is an argument that undertaking any activity today, there should be an experienced/ skilled leader/ instructor in that activity.

    Let's take knots....
    I'm not a leader and for skills....... well I'm not exactly endowed with loads. After all I just have 1 GCSE.

    At the moment I'm trying to fathom gleason's theorem (something to do with Dilbert???) But I keep getting dim h = 2 which shows that I must be pretty dim having only two brain cells. As regards tying knots....I'm all fingers and thumbs!

    Thank God I don't have to do a leader test!

    The book I'm reading is nothing like the standard as POR! I'll leave POR to those at TSA who know...or think they know ��

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    Last edited by merryweather; 20-04-2020 at 02:46 PM.
    going...going...still here...just

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I remember the old days and notification of the DC, I also remember hardly ever doing it. I do remember being visited by DC's at a couple of summer camps. I think going back to that has it the wrong way round. I remember back in the day DC's being figureheads of sorts (where we are anyway). They almost always didn't have a background in Scouting, but were notables of some sort or another. They wouldn't have been able to advise on camp sites (etc) even if they wanted to. (It's much different now, they're usually ex-leaders, but even that's not always useful).
    Whereas in our District and our former District which merged into our current one every DC was from a Scouting background, usually someone who had retired from actively running a Section or Group (i.e. they have all been 50+ I would say). My parents remember them all going back to the 1980s

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  10. #23
    Senior Member johnmcmahon's Avatar
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    Whilst the NA System has it's challenges the old system did too. CSL's had to do a training course, SL's didn't (I did the course even though not essential). The Cub side was more like the current system and the DC had to approve. Scouts just NOTIFIED the DC they were going ... and went.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmcmahon View Post
    Whilst the NA System has it's challenges the old system did too. CSL's had to do a training course, SL's didn't (I did the course even though not essential). The Cub side was more like the current system and the DC had to approve. Scouts just NOTIFIED the DC they were going ... and went.
    I don't think that's quite right. Leadership 1 (required by all Leaders at some point) contained the NA stuff. Form PC applied to Scouts but only for 4 nights or more, so there were a lot of 3 night camps!

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    Agreed that training needs a big shake up and simplified, especially around certain basics and what needs to be mandatory. For a new leader some must be completed within 6 months of taking on a role and no unsupervised activities during that time. You don't expect to drive a car without taking training and a test, or to become a teacher without training and qualifications.

    Also tighten up (as we seem to be) on Leaders who have been around for ages but still haven't completed the basics.

    Biggest issue is delivery of training, making it consistent and readily available whilst ensuring its not just a tick box exercise but the content actually understood.

    I think the modular training was brought in because people said they couldn't spare two weekends but now we have people who can't find time to even spend an evening doing 1 module or when told they have to do training they change role or resign.

    Maybe TSA should have used the lockdown period to do a root and branch re-write of POR and revamp training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    Maybe TSA should have used the lockdown period to do a root and branch re-write of POR and revamp training.
    There is a project to do the latter, it's been paused for Coronavirus but will hopefully continue after.

    The former...probably need to wait for the second Coroner's report.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmcmahon View Post
    Whilst the NA System has it's challenges the old system did too. CSL's had to do a training course, SL's didn't (I did the course even though not essential). The Cub side was more like the current system and the DC had to approve. Scouts just NOTIFIED the DC they were going ... and went.

    The training courses were included in SL1 and SL2, for all Leaders. There was a Camp Assessment done by the DC or an ADC on a pink form, before we were allowed to camp on our own -ie, without supervision.

    In theory, the DC had to approve every camp, regardless of section, though it was not formalised in a NAN. Often, practice meant that DCs were only informed of "unusual camps" - ie those out of the District, or for longer periods.
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  18. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    The training courses were included in SL1 and SL2, for all Leaders. There was a Camp Assessment done by the DC or an ADC on a pink form, before we were allowed to camp on our own -ie, without supervision.
    The latter sounds a bit local rule esque. An assessment was done as part of the Form PC process but it wasn't so far as I know a requirement for future events.

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    It's more and more sounding as if everyone's L1 and L2 training might have been slightly different too. For what its worth, our L2 training was under canvas, I assume the reason it was so cursory was because we were all either ex-scouts or venture scouts.

    One advantage of the modular system (or at least it could be) is that it should be possible to tailor training to the individuals requirements. If someone is coming up from Explorers (say), is it an efficient use of their time to be rattling on about how to set out a campsite, or pitch a tent?

    Of course, they still need to get round the fact that often, the people doing the validating/training, are even less experienced than those they are validating/training. In a voluntary organisation, that already finds it difficult to get volunteers, that to me seems like it might be a bit of an ask.

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    One area that "leaders" receive very little training is "leadership"

    There's stuff about admin, finance, international scouting... all of which many leaders will never really need... but virtually no leadership training and no scouting skills.

    Presumably these are a throwback to an era where you would join an established group as an assistant, and learn all of this on the job before taking over when skip retired.

    We teach leadership skills to our young leaders.... but not to our adult leaders.

    At my old workplace anyone who line managed anyone was sent on a 1 week leadership course, and if you managed more than 1 people you were sent on a 1 week management course. And that was to be allowed to manage people in a relatively safe environment. Scooters get no training in how to lead a section. GSLs and Commissioners get no management training. And then we wonder why incidents like Great Orme happen. We've all seen completely ineffective section leaders. Leaders who can't control the behaviour of the group they're working with. And there's plenty of talk here of poor management.

    I'm not suggesting every leader and manager should be sent on a 5 day course at a luxury hotel with all meals paid for (the course was boring but we ate well and enjoyed some good night's out that week, and I'm still friends with someone I met on that course 8 year later) but there must be a better solution than what we currently have

    - - - Updated - - -


    Of course, they still need to get round the fact that often, the people doing the validating/training, are even less experienced than those they are validating/training. In a voluntary organisation, that already finds it difficult to get volunteers, that to me seems like it might be a bit of an ask.
    My TA, and many of the others in district, were just Has and had never had any other role in scouting. The only info they had was the training manual. Having been all the way through, and a leader for some time before even getting a TA due to district ineptness, I found it moat frustrating sitting down to validate and being told I was wrong because my answer didn't match the book, while an experienced scouter would have said "well the book talks about petty cash vouchers and keeping paper receipts but I know as a group you claim everything back as expenses, and receipts are kept scanned as pdfs by the treasurer"

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