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Thread: Hall insurance

  1. #16
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    You pay a chartered surveyor - that is what we did. Cost 240 in 2011 and really set the exec's mind at ease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    So asking the collective hive mind

    How for a 1950's timber hut do you work out the rebuild cost to get an accurate quote? and i very much doubt planning would allow a timber hut now and insist on brick or similar to the houses now around us.

    I've searched online and not found anything that good apart from sites that want you to sign up for their insurance or pay a hefty fee.

    I've found various figures where other huts have been rebuilt ranging from 120K to 400K (depending on where and when). The only local figure i can find is quoting 1,800 per square meter for brick giving approx 220,000 for a hut about the same size as ours not including internal fixtures/furnishings.
    Indeed I always find it odd that planning permission won't allow a direct like for like rebuild without needing to apply for permission.

    Best bet is ask if any quantity surveyors or similar among your parents who could work our a proper rebuild cost. Or ask your insurance broker for advice.

    With modern building regulations etc, and assuming using professionals rather than volunteers from start to finish... 250000+ is pretty realistic for a scout hq. Which to replace what may be a Nissan hut donated free of charge is crazy money.

    I'll avoid starting a rant about OTT building regulations, planning regs, and the nanny state. But for a group not to be allowed to out back what was already there, and what would have still been there had a fire not occurred, is a ridiculous planning law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    You pay a chartered surveyor - that is what we did. Cost 240 in 2011 and really set the exec's mind at ease.
    This. But if you've got a convenient parent who is a chartered surveyor or quantity surveyors it's worth seeing if they'll do it for free

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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    So asking the collective hive mind

    How for a 1950's timber hut do you work out the rebuild cost to get an accurate quote? and i very much doubt planning would allow a timber hut now and insist on brick or similar to the houses now around us.

    I've searched online and not found anything that good apart from sites that want you to sign up for their insurance or pay a hefty fee.

    I've found various figures where other huts have been rebuilt ranging from 120K to 400K (depending on where and when). The only local figure i can find is quoting 1,800 per square meter for brick giving approx 220,000 for a hut about the same size as ours not including internal fixtures/furnishings.
    Ask your insurer. Unity, for example, will get a surveyor to estimate a rebuild value (Unity did not charge us prior to renewal), and will take into account the modern standard to replace a hut. You'll need to provide photos and a gross/external dimension and description of current building materials. They'll then give a rebuild cost. Insurers may not need an accurate figure and may have a upto figure (say 500,000) and worry about the actual cost if you have a total loss. I get the impression that 50k variance makes not a lot of difference to the premium.

    FWIW our 1918 wooden hut was replaced 15 years ago. Ours is now a modern, high spec hall. 15 years ago it cost 470,000 to build (to a higher spec than we needed and with upper floors so significantly more floor area). Now over those 15 years the est. rebuild cost has gone up - but the RICS publish an annual house rebuilding cost index which enables surveyors to multiply a known rebuild cost by the index to get the upto date rebuild cost. There is a degree of rounding in this approach but it is a fairly blunt tool anyway as rebuilding costs are not that predictable for a myriad of reasons. For insurance purposes it is more than adequate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    You pay a chartered surveyor - that is what we did. Cost 240 in 2011 and really set the exec's mind at ease.
    It will take them 15 minutes to do - that's why Insurers can offer it for free. (I am an ex Chartered Surveyor).
    Last edited by Paul o; 28-04-2020 at 09:44 AM.

  4. #19
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    Thanks all, i'll ask Unity once we get out of lockdown and see if we have any surveyors in our parents
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul o View Post
    The offsite cover is disproportionately costly. IIRC correctly we assessed the chance of a high claim offsite was not worth the premium. So our cover was for onsite loss and if we wanted a particular event then wed cover it separately.
    I suspect the reason we had that was because we had a marquee that we hired out a dozen times a year, we also used it for summer camp. We still have the marquee, but it's in very poor shape, and we no longer have the bodies to put it up.

    So this is one area where we could save.

  6. #21
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    If house insurance is anything to go by then my house is insured for rebuild costs far in excess of the level the house actually cost to buy

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    If house insurance is anything to go by then my house is insured for rebuild costs far in excess of the level the house actually cost to buy
    Your rebuild cost will include architect fees (which if an estate house would have been shared between loads of houses when first built), the planning process (because bizarrely.you can't just rebuild like for like), building to current building regs, demolishing the ruins (which for some buildings will.include asbestos), etx.

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    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Your rebuild cost will include architect fees (which if an estate house would have been shared between loads of houses when first built), the planning process (because bizarrely.you can't just rebuild like for like), building to current building regs, demolishing the ruins (which for some buildings will.include asbestos), etx.
    Yep, the value of the building as is and the cost to rebuild for insurance purposes are two very different things. I think often there is a rebuild cost up to x amount in houe insurance policies at least.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

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    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Yep, the value of the building as is and the cost to rebuild for insurance purposes are two very different things. I think often there is a rebuild cost up to x amount in houe insurance policies at least.
    For a semi detached house for example it's worth remembering the rebuild cost may also include stabilisation of party walls which can be quite expensive.

    Probably less of an issue for a scout hut. But a scout group is unlikely to get planning permission for a like for like unless their is quite recent. Therefore a recent hq (whose plans can be reused saving architect fees etc) may actually cost less to rebuild than something from the 60s full of asbestos even though the modern hq is "worth" more

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I suspect the reason we had that was because we had a marquee that we hired out a dozen times a year, we also used it for summer camp. We still have the marquee, but it's in very poor shape, and we no longer have the bodies to put it up.

    So this is one area where we could save.
    Covering hired out kit (if declared ) is also a much greater per insurance cost. Likewise having non-Scout sub tenants or hiring out the hall.

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    Whatever you do don’t under insure. The insurers can and will “apply average” this means that if you insure for 100K for a property that actually will cost 200k to rebuild, then the insurers will say that you only half insured and you may get only 50K for the rebuild - half what you said it was worth. This applies to sub amounts. So if you claim 20k for flood damage and the insurers assess that your hut is underinsured by 50% then they may only pay out 10K.

    Seems unfair in some ways but the insurer will say that your premiums will have been significantly lower than you should have paid if you’d properly insured it.

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul o View Post
    Covering hired out kit (if declared ) is also a much greater per insurance cost. Likewise having non-Scout sub tenants or hiring out the hall.
    I can't actually find a specific clause which covers hired out equipment. I think it's all covered in off-site inclusions.

    Also, I notice, we're not covered for repeat bookings, only one off 'occasional' use by non-scouting organisations.

    I'm hoping, that purely by changing broker, it'll produce some sort of saving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I can't actually find a specific clause which covers hired out equipment. I think it's all covered in off-site inclusions.

    Also, I notice, we're not covered for repeat bookings, only one off 'occasional' use by non-scouting organisations.

    I'm hoping, that purely by changing broker, it'll produce some sort of saving.
    I would not assume hiring out is covered. My business insurance has a specific "don't hire out" clause.
    Likewise sub-letting is a big no no unless specifically stated in the policy.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul o View Post
    I would not assume hiring out is covered. My business insurance has a specific "don't hire out" clause.
    Likewise sub-letting is a big no no unless specifically stated in the policy.
    We have that issue with equipment. It a covered wherever it is but not if we have "dry hired" it. Interestingly our liability insurance does cover dry hire, so we can still do it.... we just make sure we charge a deposit to cover damage, or only hire out lower value items. That way the risk is managed and limited to the value of the items minus the deposit... rather than potential injury claims etc

    We will dry hire to organisations that have their own insurance though.

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    Our premium is 950, with SAGIC (Sally Army), through broker Access Insurance. (Alan Boswell are another agent representing SAGIC.) The premium includes a 15% discount in return for committing to renew for two years (and they in turn commit to hold the price). This makes them cheaper than the others I found, such as Unity and Ansvar (the latter through Towergate).

    Our hut is insured for 470k, which is based on what it cost to build, 4 years ago, plus a bit more for inflation and so we could hire a better builder if we needed to rebuild. And 21k of equipment and 11k of building contents.

    Unity's policy seemed riddled with conditions that are unrealistic for a scout group, which is surprising for the in-house insurer. I preferred to go for a policy that is more straightforward, so I could feel sure we are covered.

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