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Thread: Are we quorate?

  1. #46
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    And here's a good example of how POR is unclear and open to interpretation.
    It's not open to interpretation. The final say is the charity regulator, so ask them (if you're an excepted charity).

    We (along with other multi-section groups in the area and indeed the DC) read 3.7c etc as referring to job shares within the same section. So if a cub pack has two Csls sharing the job only one would be ex officio on the exec. We, like many others, did not interpret that to mean if there were multiple cub packs within the group only one CSL would be able to sit ex-officio on the exec.
    So ask rather than interpret!
    It's also a good example of how the model constitution doesn't work for all groups as it doesn't factor in that different groups have different management structures dictated by the practicality of how they run.
    So change your structure, but you'll have to get permission. So, again, ask, don't interpret!
    A large group with 3 of each section may have as many members as a small district, and might have AGSLs overseeing each section. It might be more appropriate to keep the exec manageable to have those sectional AGSLs sit in the exec rather than the section leaders
    So if it's taken over the small district (effectively) then there needs some management structure 're-think to effect a better balance?

    The last point might be a better, more effective all as it does look like a glorified GSM.

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 04-05-2020 at 09:52 AM.
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  2. #47
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    From what i understand your AGM has to be within 6 months of financial year end.

    So we could look to hold AGM in September (financial year ends march 31st) rather than the usual june assuming restrictions allow us to do it face-2-face.

    When i was district treasurer i moved our financial year end to Dec 31st so that all accounts could be done through the relatively quiet xmas and new year and not be doing capitation & accounts all at the same time in april (its now been moved back to 31st march by current treasurer)

    Interestingly a big company i have a few shares in has decided to hold their AGM face-2-face with only the chairman, director and enough employee shareholders to make it quorate, with minimum business as required for an AGM and votes submitted beforehand to chairman to vote by proxy. They seem to have found no options in the governing document or applicable rules & law that allows a purely online meeting even with the resources they have to run one.
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

  3. #48
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    From what i understand your AGM has to be within 6 months of financial year end.
    Correct. You've been reading POR! 😀 I didn't read it this morning but many here can attest that my memory is good. (I'm sure you knew too).


    So we could look to hold AGM in September (financial year ends march 31st) rather than the usual june assuming restrictions allow us to do it face-2-face.
    Yes (but mine - sorry - my old group was done earlier in the year).


    When i was district treasurer i moved our financial year end to Dec 31st so that all accounts could be done through the relatively quiet xmas and new year and not be doing capitation & accounts all at the same time in april (its now been moved back to 31st march by current treasurer)
    Bad move....by new treasurer, correct move by you!


    Interestingly a big company i have a few shares in has decided to hold their AGM face-2-face with only the chairman, director and enough employee shareholders to make it quorate, with minimum business as required for an AGM and votes submitted beforehand to chairman to vote by proxy. They seem to have found no options in the governing document or applicable rules & law that allows a purely online meeting even with the resources they have to run one.
    Yes it could be done online if it was feasible, but it might be better to delay (As you did so because it brought about better alignment)

    I bet you didn't believe we changed it to stop the GT going to skegness or parents going to the Maldives!😀

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 04-05-2020 at 10:22 AM. Reason: Harsh on some up!
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  5. #49
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    You don't need to align your year with the tax year! Choose a date that suits you. A date in March may be good for you to have a barbecue not the summer term but it's not the best time when everyone is out or packing for camp when trying to do report and accounts! Plus you're likely to lose 2-3 months of the 6 months. Why rush?

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 04-05-2020 at 10:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    You don't need to align your year with the tax year! Choose a date that suits you. A date in March may be good for you to have a barbecue, but it's not the best time when everyone is out or packing for camp when trying to do report and accounts!

    TM
    Our year end was 1st April. In hindsight it should have been 31 December as that's the point of the year that tends not to have income for future camps (first instalments for summer camps tended to be february). Indeed the year we ran group camp during the Easter holidays it meant all the income was in one financial year, and the expenditure was the next. Even with December year end it's possible to do a nice BBQ AGM event in may or June.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    It's not open to interpretation. The final say is the charity regulator, so ask them (if you're an excepted charity).



    So ask rather than interpret!


    So change your structure, but you'll have to get permission. So, again, ask, don't interpret!


    So if it's taken over the small district (effectively) then there needs some management structure 're-think to effect a better balance?

    The last point might be a better, more effective all as it does look like a glorified GSM.

    TM
    We were a registered, rather than excepted, charity. A vestige of old advice that groups with their own HQs had to be registered.

    Have you asked the regulator? Have you asked TSA? Or are you, like us, interpreting POR but getting a different meaning.

    Ultimately a group showing they have acted in good faith and showing how they interpreted the rules in a way they believed to be correct is far less likely to end up in hot water than a group that choses to disregard the rules.

  7. #51
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Our year end was 1st April. In hindsight it should have been 31 December as that's the point of the year that tends not to have income for future camps (first instalments for summer camps tended to be february). Indeed the year we ran group camp during the Easter holidays it meant all the income was in one financial year, and the expenditure was the next. Even with December year end it's possible to do a nice BBQ AGM event in may or June.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We were a registered, rather than excepted, charity. A vestige of old advice that groups with their own HQs had to be registered.
    Yes, back then but many are being de-registered nowadays.

    My Group was an excepted one not needing to register, so the regulatory body for us was the SA. For registered groups it's the CC but they will defer to TSA.


    Have you asked the regulator? Have you asked TSA? Or are you, like us, interpreting POR but getting a different meaning.
    I have asked and I have the experience.

    Ultimately a group showing they have acted in good faith and showing how they interpreted the rules in a way they believed to be correct is far less likely to end up in hot water than a group that choses to disregard the rules.
    The rules will be read without interpretation but as you say no one is going to pour on hot water unless people ask awkward questions.

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 04-05-2020 at 11:46 AM.
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    I think it is fair to say if that rule has caused not just my self and my old group but many other groups to get confused and do the "wrong" thing it needs recording... or better still removing. To me it seems silly to say "the group has two colonies but only one BSL is allowed an ex-officio position on the exec" without then stating a process to select which BSL should have that position. What if both want it? Who choses? Is it the chair? The GSL? Is an election held? And if one colony is represented on exec and the other isn't, will one colony be seen as more important or better than the other.

    Could it not be more simply written as: the section leader (or, in the event if a section having multiple leaders, one section leader per section, of each cub pack, beaver colony and scout troop within the group.

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  10. #53
    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    But POR is clear
    "All Section Leaders (i.e. individuals holding a Beaver Scout Leader, Cub Scout Leader or Scout Leader role)........"
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    You can have each BSL and each CSL and each SL being members of the GEC, however, only 1 BSL and 1 CSL and 1 SL can hold ex-officio positions on the GEC; not all 9! Of course they could have been nominated or elected or co-opted, but these options will likely come up against the rules defining limits on types; I would be highly impressed at seeing a 6-way election run off! �� and 3 AGSLs would question the GSL 's job descriptions for them and the inevitable question regarding the need to consider a split of sorts?
    Unusually I have to disagree with your interpretation of POR here TM. I think the wording of rule 3.23 b iii is quite clear that any and all Leaders holding a Section leader appointment within the Group are (or at least can be) Ex-officio members of the Group Exec
    All Section Leaders (i.e. individuals holding a Beaver Scout Leader, Cub Scout Leader or Scout Leader role) subject to that Section Leader expressly indicating to the AGM (in writing or orally at the meeting) that they are willing to perform such a function.
    https://www.scouts.org.uk/por/3-the-scout-group/#3.23

    Whilst I agree rules 3.7c, 3.8c & 3.9c do murky the water on this but when you take into consideration that the below part of these rules
    Where there is more than one Section Leader appointed, only one of the Section Leaders may opt-in to be an ex officio member of the Group executive Committee
    was only added when they altered the rules to allow more than one person to hold a Section Leader appointment in the same Section then i think its clear that the intention is to stop the same Section having more than one Ex-Officio person on the Group Exec not to stop multiple Sections in the same Group having an Ex-officio person on the Group Exec.

    However having said that in the set up in hippysurfers Group where they have an AGSL per Section as well then I think I would try to encourage the situation where the Section AGSLs represent the sections on the Group Exec rather than having the rather unweildy position of having 16 or 17 ex-officio positions on the Group Exec before you even look at elected, nominated or co-opted ordinary members.


    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    So you're aware that your group's AGM has a deadline of September? And there should not be too much trouble, in the circumstances, to delay a month or three? You can easily set the delay resolution before the GEC to get a speedy result, yes? District, HQ, or the CC aren't going to stop you.
    I am indeed aware that we have to the end of September to hold our AGM and have made the point myself to our Exec that we can choose to delay to Sept

    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    Did your district hold its AGM before lockdown? My Group did. ( But then under the old GSL it would do things timely and within POR!) ��
    No, our District usully hold their AGM in June as recently they have had a free BBQ to help encourage attendance and as a thanks to Leaders in the District.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 05-05-2020 at 11:04 AM.

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Unusually I have to disagree with your interpretation of POR here TM. I think the wording of rule 3.23 b iii is quite clear that any and all Leaders holding a Section leader appointment within the Group are (or at least can be) Ex-officio members of the Group Exec

    https://www.scouts.org.uk/por/3-the-scout-group/#3.23

    Whilst I agree rules 3.7c, 3.8c & 3.9c do murky the water on this but when you take into consideration that the below part of these rules
    was only added when they altered the rules to allow more than one person to hold a Section Leader abbointment in the same Section then i think its clear that the intention is to stop the same Section having more than one Ex-Officio person on the Group Exec not to stop multiple Sections in the same Group having an Ex-officio person on the Group Exec.
    Having now read it in full, your explanation is correct. I'm wrong. I apologise.

    And to camper, I apologise too and agree with your view that it's not very clear, unless one is able to cross reference and check over many rules, which it's not easy to do.

    However having said that in the set up in hippysurfers Group where they have an AGSL per Section as well then I think I would try to encourage the situation where the Section AGSLs represent the sections on the Group Exec rather than having the rather unweildy position of having 16 or 17 ex-officio positions on the Group Exec before you even look at elected, nominated or co-opted ordinary members.
    But the state of affairs is, imo, very unwieldy in that situation. It's nice to have large numbers, but why not let us join in with many packs, troops, and colonies, so that we could add another 68 section and to cosy block of ex-officio leaders.😀 and then climb the ramparts and scale the bastions of HQ?😀 and so on....

    I am indeed aware that we have to the end of September to hold our AGM and have made the point myself to our Exec that we can choose to delay to Sept
    So your eofy is end of March. I never doubted that you didn't know that. That's within the 6-months so No need to delay. No choice needed.

    But if you did need to delay there should not be a problem. (Of course if you need to have 126 ex-officio people online or crammed in the gents and ladies, that maybe an issue! &#128512


    No, our District usully hold their AGM in June as recently they have had a free BBQ to help encourage attendance and as a thanks to Leaders in the District.
    I'd like to see that if you all had to kit up in ppe . Not many likely to attend if cv is still going around. Maybe you can pay them and recoup the money by raising district AMS?

    As for POR, I recall there was a team doing a review. Not any more methinks, rules are being written by many different teams, unlinked istm, and no one doing any coordinating. That's why rules are being made such T0.

    God forbid letting anyone playing skipping without a degree in tying knots and backed by an air support crew of nurses and training in covid-19!

    TM
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