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Thread: Retail, hospitality and leisure grant fund

  1. #31
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Agreed - however I do wonder if AMS from HQ might not also anticipate the grant !
    They shouldn't, knowing that many groups don't meet in their own hut, therefore won't have the grant to help pay for an increased AMS. I mean, AMS is going up, for sure, but...
    Ian Wilkins
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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    They shouldn't, knowing that many groups don't meet in their own hut, therefore won't have the grant to help pay for an increased AMS. I mean, AMS is going up, for sure, but...
    If they wanted to be unpopular, they could impose a buildings levy, or a SATC charge i guess, on English groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    If they wanted to be unpopular, they could impose a buildings levy, or a SATC charge i guess, on English groups.
    They would probably have to change POR and/or constituition i would have thought to be able to do so and it would be very unpopular and i hope contested.

    If SATC was to impose a sudden large charge can't we just refuse to pay and use someone else, i'm not even sure our deeds are held by them, and in any case i'm sure there is something in law about unfair fees, terms and conditions.

    Not sure how they could impose a building levy, how would they know you had got the grant or could pay it, and unless it is set up so you have to pay it to remain under TSA i can't see how it could be imposed. If they tried i'd be tempted to do as has been suggested and spin the hut out into a separate charity running it for our group as well as brownies, guides & explorers.
    Dave Ralphs
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  4. #34
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    If they tried i'd be tempted to do as has been suggested and spin the hut out into a separate charity running it for our group as well as brownies, guides & explorers.
    Easier said than done, if your Group owns the hut then you can't just give it away to another charity as its an asset owned by the Group and your trustees have a duty to realise full value for it if giving up ownership of it. In order to have that set up you really need it from the start and use the seperate charity as the one that holds the funds when fundraising for a building in the first place.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Easier said than done, if your Group owns the hut then you can't just give it away to another charity as its an asset owned by the Group and your trustees have a duty to realise full value for it if giving up ownership of it. In order to have that set up you really need it from the start and use the seperate charity as the one that holds the funds when fundraising for a building in the first place.
    No, you can set up a trust and transfer the building to the trust and create a hall management committee including other users. It is actually quite simple.
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    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    No, you can set up a trust and transfer the building to the trust and create a hall management committee including other users. It is actually quite simple.
    Charity Commission guidance would siggest that is not the case
    4.1 What are the requirements for sales, longer leases and other disposals of an interest in land?
    If you are carrying out one of these types of disposals you must:

    obtain and consider a written report from a qualified surveyor
    advertise the disposal following advice from your surveyor
    decide you are satisfied that the proposed terms are the best that can reasonably be obtained in the circumstances of the disposal
    (my bold)
    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...harity-land#s4
    Last edited by shiftypete; 06-05-2020 at 08:43 PM.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    If they wanted to be unpopular, they could impose a buildings levy, or a SATC charge i guess, on English groups.
    You know you've just invented Yossarian's glue gun?!
    John Russell
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  9. #38
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    You know you've just invented Yossarian's glue gun?!
    i'll wait until it gets quoted on here from facebook and then My God, it is true.

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    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    You know you've just invented Yossarian's glue gun?!

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Easier said than done, if your Group owns the hut then you can't just give it away to another charity as its an asset owned by the Group and your trustees have a duty to realise full value for it if giving up ownership of it. In order to have that set up you really need it from the start and use the seperate charity as the one that holds the funds when fundraising for a building in the first place.


    Sorry but if you saw our hut you would know why i'm laughing. Even the land is probably not worth a great deal due to its location and what it used to be.

    But yes i appreciate it has to be done officially following charity commission rules.
    Dave Ralphs
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    There are many examples of Trusts handling Scout property - the title is held by the Trustees on behalf of the Group/ District and the property is run by the Group/ or the committee of users. That is what the SATC does. The Trust agreement can be a simple holding operation, leaving all costs and maintenance to the operating committee.

    The term is a Jointly Owned Property Trust and requires registration with the Land Registry - Looking at the form it would require a solicitor to act on the Group/ Trust's behalf. I know that the two times that we have transferred property to the SAYC it was a simple transfer to protect the property. On the campsite we transferred rom the existing Trust to the SATC and the only awkward bit was getting the agreement of an elderly sole remaining Trustee.
    Ewan Scott

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    Itís interesting to see quoting POR/Charity Law as a reason not to help other scouts. We are all supposed to be scouts, and scouts should help other scouts if they are able to do so.

    The money came to us as an unfettered grant. It is not restricted in any way. Provided we donít endanger the financial stability of our own charity, then we are perfectly entitled to make grants to any other body that shares the same aims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    ... the only awkward bit was getting the agreement of an elderly sole remaining Trustee.
    And thatís why SATC exists: to prevent Groups getting into serious trouble when all the trustees of the property trust die/whatever.

    The current Exec may be willing to ensure this situation never occurs, but what about 10-20-50 years time?

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    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    There are many examples of Trusts handling Scout property - the title is held by the Trustees on behalf of the Group/ District and the property is run by the Group/ or the committee of users. That is what the SATC does. The Trust agreement can be a simple holding operation, leaving all costs and maintenance to the operating committee.

    The term is a Jointly Owned Property Trust and requires registration with the Land Registry - Looking at the form it would require a solicitor to act on the Group/ Trust's behalf. I know that the two times that we have transferred property to the SAYC it was a simple transfer to protect the property. On the campsite we transferred rom the existing Trust to the SATC and the only awkward bit was getting the agreement of an elderly sole remaining Trustee.
    Yes but that is just holding the building in trust for the Charity or changing who the holding trust is (as no UK charity can hold buildings or land as they are not the correct legal entity). I don't believe that is what dralphs was suggesting, I think he was suggesting transferring ownership of the building so that the Scout Group were no longer the owners or sole beneficiaries of the ownership which is a very different thing.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
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    2017-2018 AGSL
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Yes but that is just holding the building in trust for the Charity or changing who the holding trust is (as no UK charity can hold buildings or land as they are not the correct legal entity). I don't believe that is what dralphs was suggesting, I think he was suggesting transferring ownership of the building so that the Scout Group were no longer the owners or sole beneficiaries of the ownership which is a very different thing.
    Yes something like that should HQ try a buildings tax
    Dave Ralphs
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