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Thread: Review of Scouts and Explorers age ranges

  1. #31
    Map Geek marcush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    But isn't the idea of the early years Section to recruit the parents in by making them accompany their kids?
    not on all of the pilots.

    Rule 66. A map and compass offers no protection against getting horribly lost.

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    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    But isn't the idea of the early years Section to recruit the parents in by making them accompany their kids?
    I was impressed that they could decide that the pilot would lead to more leaders long term without waiting until at least some of the first cohort were well into Beaver age and the parents were helping with (at least) Beavers. With a cynical hat - if you want a project to succeed then you will set the criteria so it can't fail and you can have all the "political" spin.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcush View Post
    not on all of the pilots.
    But which pilot will be "successful" and therefore implemented?
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    We have quite a few parents keen to help with the Beavers, a handful with the Cubs, and when it comes to Scouts this dwindles to nothing.
    Another leader said that the ost you cna typicallly get i about 4 years of parent invovlemnt after that they have had enough

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    Cynically I believe that the early years section is there to increase numbers. An instant 100K+ jump in numbers and revenues in a movement which is flatlining in numbers and reducing in penetration. TSA are as good as any organisation at spinning the census - when numbers dropped last year the story was all about the need for adult leaders or waiting lists (can't remember which), a new section would be a gift to the numbers game as the census would rise over several years as the new section opened.

    I think it will be a great success. Beaver leaders are the easiest to find as they usually come from parents at an age where parents socialise a lot and can spare the relatively limited time to run that section. Some leaders move on to Cubs with their children, quite a few last just 2 years with their children. I think an early years section would be the same, easy to find leaders, they'd probably move up with their children into Beavers.

    Downside? If children bore of Scouting then they may well do so earlier in the Scouting careers than at present lowering numbers in the upper sections.

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    ASL Kev's Avatar
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    OK I'm new to this (only been doing scouting about 10 years). Are you saying there are more YP in the 14-18 age range in scouting now than under the previous system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    OK I'm new to this (only been doing scouting about 10 years). Are you saying there are more YP in the 14-18 age range in scouting now than under the previous system?
    In absolute numbers it’s hard to compare a there were more in the movement 20 years ago. But relatively there are far more in the 14-18 age range than previously.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Cynically I believe that the early years section is there to increase numbers. An instant 100K+ jump in numbers and revenues in a movement which is flatlining in numbers and reducing in penetration. TSA are as good as any organisation at spinning the census - when numbers dropped last year the story was all about the need for adult leaders or waiting lists (can't remember which), a new section would be a gift to the numbers game as the census would rise over several years as the new section opened.

    I think it will be a great success. Beaver leaders are the easiest to find as they usually come from parents at an age where parents socialise a lot and can spare the relatively limited time to run that section. Some leaders move on to Cubs with their children, quite a few last just 2 years with their children. I think an early years section would be the same, easy to find leaders, they'd probably move up with their children into Beavers.

    Downside? If children bore of Scouting then they may well do so earlier in the Scouting careers than at present lowering numbers in the upper sections.
    Agree with this. It's an idea born out of a business model, not the 'aims' of Scouting.

    I think it'll be patchy, I also suspect it just might seem easier to recruit beaver leaders because we have to do it so often. (I wonder what section has the highest turn over of leaders?) For us (which is anecdotal), Beavers has the highest, then Cubs, then Scouts. We had a really decent guy in who stayed for 12 years or so, other than that, it's been a constant job, is still a constant job.

    I suppose it'll depend on what's involved in the training etc. I think as well, there may well be a clash of the outcomes of a business model crashing into the reality of trying to operate on the goodwill of the community. These are uneasy bedfellows... I think...


  10. #39
    Yes, I've got the T-shirt Sparkgap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    < that is not what it says anywhere. You can have a unit based in every group and should do so if the demand is there
    But not if certain people in district don't want you to! Personality clashes and politics seem to play a major role around here!

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Agree with this. It's an idea born out of a business model, not the 'aims' of Scouting.

    I think it'll be patchy, I also suspect it just might seem easier to recruit beaver leaders because we have to do it so often. (I wonder what section has the highest turn over of leaders?) For us (which is anecdotal), Beavers has the highest, then Cubs, then Scouts. We had a really decent guy in who stayed for 12 years or so, other than that, it's been a constant job, is still a constant job.

    I suppose it'll depend on what's involved in the training etc. I think as well, there may well be a clash of the outcomes of a business model crashing into the reality of trying to operate on the goodwill of the community. These are uneasy bedfellows... I think...

    I've always wondered why they didn't just make each section a four year span: cubs 6-10, scouts 10-14 etc. Three sections instead of four, three lots of leaders instead of four, you get the picture!
    Andy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkgap View Post
    I've always wondered why they didn't just make each section a four year span: cubs 6-10, scouts 10-14 etc. Three sections instead of four, three lots of leaders instead of four, you get the picture!
    Because the younger a kid is, the more they change in a given period of time. No 10 year old is going to want to hang round with 6 year olds. And that's why the Sections get wider as they get older, Network (7 years) being the widest. Then when you get onto adults there is no practical difference between a 30 and a 40 year old other than more baldness and grey hair.

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  13. #41
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Agree with this. It's an idea born out of a business model, not the 'aims' of Scouting.

    I think it'll be patchy, I also suspect it just might seem easier to recruit beaver leaders because we have to do it so often. (I wonder what section has the highest turn over of leaders?) For us (which is anecdotal), Beavers has the highest, then Cubs, then Scouts. We had a really decent guy in who stayed for 12 years or so, other than that, it's been a constant job, is still a constant job.

    I suppose it'll depend on what's involved in the training etc. I think as well, there may well be a clash of the outcomes of a business model crashing into the reality of trying to operate on the goodwill of the community. These are uneasy bedfellows... I think...

    Our Beaver Colony had the same BSL for about 25 years and she was ABSL before that as well, she also happened to be my Mum. The BSL who took over from her is just in the process of leaving after 3 or 4 years having moved to the other side of Leeds so we will soon be appointing the 4th ever BSL in the 34 year history of our Colony!

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  14. #42
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Because the younger a kid is, the more they change in a given period of time. No 10 year old is going to want to hang round with 6 year olds. And that's why the Sections get wider as they get older, Network (7 years) being the widest. Then when you get onto adults there is no practical difference between a 30 and a 40 year old other than more baldness and grey hair.
    I would take issue with your assertion that there is no difference between a 30 and 40 year old.

    The 40 year old is normally at the stage where he has stopped worrying about the things that a 30 year old might be concerned about. He is starting to see a bigger picture. Having said that, I have come across some 25 year olds who have set views that never seem to change. At 60+, I listen to the concerns of parents of kids and I nod and smile in the full knowledge that they are worrying a/ about nothing and b/ about the wrong things.

    a/ they worry about school work but b/ they don't bother about the **** that is on their phone... a/ will resolve itself, B/ can lead to serious issues. For example.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I would take issue with your assertion that there is no difference between a 30 and 40 year old.

    The 40 year old is normally at the stage where he has stopped worrying about the things that a 30 year old might be concerned about. He is starting to see a bigger picture. Having said that, I have come across some 25 year olds who have set views that never seem to change. At 60+, I listen to the concerns of parents of kids and I nod and smile in the full knowledge that they are worrying a/ about nothing and b/ about the wrong things.

    a/ they worry about school work but b/ they don't bother about the **** that is on their phone... a/ will resolve itself, B/ can lead to serious issues. For example.
    I think Neil has a fair point though. In my mid 30s I have friends who are in their late 40s. I have friends who are in their early 20s. The age difference doesnt mean much (until we start talking about our memories of children's TV!)

    A 12 year old is unlikely to have close friends more than one school year above or below.

    When I was 30, I briefly dated a girl aged 21. As adults we were equals despite the 9 year age diference. Had we both been 10 years younger it would have been a VERY different story!

    For a junior section 2-3 years is a decent age gap. For Scouts/Explorers that can be stretched a little bit. By network the 7 year gap is fine

    Perhaps a good guideline is 1/3 of age. So for a 6 year old thats 2 years. For a 9 year old thats 3 years, 12 year old 4 years, 15 year old is 5 years and 21 year old is 7 years. Which isnt far off the age ranges in TSA's sections.

  16. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Our Beaver Colony had the same BSL for about 25 years and she was ABSL before that as well, she also happened to be my Mum. The BSL who took over from her is just in the process of leaving after 3 or 4 years having moved to the other side of Leeds so we will soon be appointing the 4th ever BSL in the 34 year history of our Colony!
    That's what you want - a 25 year tenure for Beaver leader.

    It's almost soul destroying when a long term leader goes. You just know it's going to be nigh on impossible to replace them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That's what you want - a 25 year tenure for Beaver leader.

    It's almost soul destroying when a long term leader goes. You just know it's going to be nigh on impossible to replace them.
    Ironically theres a similar discussion going on about tenures of exec members!

    A 25 year tenure of a beaver leader who is excellent is great. Unfortunately i've seen plenty of long term leaders who have gone "off the boil" or dont realise that POR has changed in 25 years - particularly around beaver nights away!!

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