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Thread: Is there now any chance of a summer camp?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Hmm, that's twice today there has been a hint that those who might be vulnerable should be somehow isolated, perhaps in a camp of some kind.. no, I know that is not what you meant... How does anyone KNOW who is not going to get this? If we knew the answer to that we would not need any Lockdown at all.

    This comes back to a previous discussion that you have led about the physical fitness of Leaders. You were speaking, at the time, about those who are overweight and perhaps give a poor example by their lack of health.

    On the basis of your above argument - I'll hazard a guess about my erstwhile District. Of the Leaders that I knew at the time. I'd guess that over 50% would not be fit to leader under your obesity test, and more would be excluded by isolation. The District could potentially see its Leadership reduced by up to 2/3rds.

    I've made my thought clear all along, but, when the time comes, we will introduce what activity we can, in as controlled a manner as we can. When we feel that the risk can be managed to a degree that we feel is acceptable. That might not be the same as others around us. That will be our choice.

    If we go too early, the parents will tell us by not allowing their kids to attend. And that will be their choice, quite rightly.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting concentration camps for the infirm!

    You ask how anyone can know who will get it... It's fairly irrelevant who will get it. What's relevant is who has a likelihood of ending up seriously ill, and we can work that out from statistics in the same way your insurance company decide how likely you are to have an accident.

    Whichever way you play it will be "unfair".

    Keeping everyone in lockdown so that everyone is equal will be seen as unfair by those who could be out and about.

    Keeping The most vulnerable in lockdown whole letting those who are less likely to be vulnerable resume life will be seen as unfair by the vulnerable.

    The other challenge is deciding what is a reasonable risk level. To me, a 0.1% chance of dying IF you catch it is reasonable, and (to the best of anyone's ability due to the lack of accurate case figures) many scientists say that for a healthy adult at middle age or less, or a child, the chances are 0.1% or lower.

    Many elderly people might also argue that a 10% chance, which is more realistic for an 80 year old, is acceptable given the relatively short amount of "quality years" they have ahead of them.

    For each individual it is about what they deem reasonable. A 50 something year old with an underlying health condition who probably has 30-40 active years left probably wouldn't accept a 10% chance of dying.... and would want or need to shield.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Hmm, that's twice today there has been a hint that those who might be vulnerable should be somehow isolated, perhaps in a camp of some kind.. no, I know that is not what you meant... How does anyone KNOW who is not going to get this? If we knew the answer to that we would not need any Lockdown at all.

    This comes back to a previous discussion that you have led about the physical fitness of Leaders. You were speaking, at the time, about those who are overweight and perhaps give a poor example by their lack of health.

    On the basis of your above argument - I'll hazard a guess about my erstwhile District. Of the Leaders that I knew at the time. I'd guess that over 50% would not be fit to leader under your obesity test, and more would be excluded by isolation. The District could potentially see its Leadership reduced by up to 2/3rds.

    I've made my thought clear all along, but, when the time comes, we will introduce what activity we can, in as controlled a manner as we can. When we feel that the risk can be managed to a degree that we feel is acceptable. That might not be the same as others around us. That will be our choice.

    If we go too early, the parents will tell us by not allowing their kids to attend. And that will be their choice, quite rightly.
    Not just me, the government is clearly saying in its 50 pager that the vulnerable - or those who feel that may be vulnerable, may wish to shield for months to come, although there is no indication that there will be any mandate, if I'd had a shielding letter I'm damn sure I'd stay home shielded too. However, I have, and will continue to, follow the rules exactly, I won't follow the invented rules of the village virologists. .

    It's not even as though there is any consistency -My NDN's son's girlfriend lives in Switzerland, there the scientists believe that children under 10 are not only aymptomatic but can't pass it on and so all the primary schools have reopened. Who is right ? If it's the Swiss then our scientists have a lot to answer for.

    As to your points on the Summer camp - absolutely - whatever I think about my children I respect everyone else's right to do as they wish and, as I've said before, I seriously think that many parents will not send the children on a camp, and indeed will view very dimly a troop which in camping may show a disregard for health, and, of course, puts pressure from their children which may be very unwelcome.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Not just me, the government is clearly saying in its 50 pager that the vulnerable - or those who feel that may be vulnerable, may wish to shield for months to come, although there is no indication that there will be any mandate, if I'd had a shielding letter I'm damn sure I'd stay home shielded too.
    I'm pretty sure I wouldn't fully shield. Fortunately it is a personal decision - I would strongly oppose something that is for the protection of the individual being legally mandated when it has such strong disadvantages.

    As to your points on the Summer camp - absolutely - whatever I think about my children I respect everyone else's right to do as they wish and, as I've said before, I seriously think that many parents will not send the children on a camp, and indeed will view very dimly a troop which in camping may show a disregard for health, and, of course, puts pressure from their children which may be very unwelcome.
    Fundamentally I will act within Government and TSA guidelines/rules with regard to reopening, and anyone who happens to disagree with those can withdraw their children if they wish. I've done that before - a parent wanted extra supervision on an event where YP were going to be hiking remotely supervised, and I politely told them to get lost and refunded their payment. The event was as planned, if they wished their son/daughter not to attend that was their decision.

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    It seems simple to me. I appreciate the difficulties of issuing refunds when you don't have electronic banking - I am in exactly the same situation but it just another task which can be handled. There will be no camping of any sort this year. Holding out for any alteration to the lockdown rules as implemented by Gilwell is wishful thinking at best and flies in the face of common sense. In the greater scheme of things no summer camp this year is going to have little to no effect on the future of scouting in any area. Be patient, stay safe and look forward to a time when we can all start scouting as it should be.

  7. #35
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    cynically... in the olden days refunds issued via cheque were a real moneymaker

    if you pointed out that any non cashed cheques would be treated as a donation then you could gift aid them too. You can do the same by asking for bank details but saying anybody not sendingback details will have their fee treated as a donation.

  8. #36
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    ...but can't we go camping in Australia by Ryannair? 😀

    TM

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    ...but can't we go camping in Australia by Ryannair? 😀

    TM
    Sorry, I was thinking of South Wales...forgot the New bit.

    Of course, I also forgot it's heading into winter. So the answer to the OP is....

    NO!

    😊

    TM
    going...going...still here...just

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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Not just me, the government is clearly saying in its 50 pager that the vulnerable - or those who feel that may be vulnerable, may wish to shield for months to come, although there is no indication that there will be any mandate, if I'd had a shielding letter I'm damn sure I'd stay home shielded too. However, I have, and will continue to, follow the rules exactly, I won't follow the invented rules of the village virologists.
    So do I need to go to the blacksmiths? Is that a necessary trip because I know of one just 7miles away but it's over the border! Will they accept my Auchtermucty passport?


    It's not even as though there is any consistency -My NDN's son's girlfriend lives in Switzerland, there the scientists believe that children under 10 are not only aymptomatic but can't pass it on and so all the primary schools have reopened. Who is right ? If it's the Swiss then our scientists have a lot to answer for.
    Really? I thought they just had chocolates and cuckoo clocks! And a Mr Federer - is he your virologist?
    As to your points on the Summer camp - absolutely - whatever I think about my children I respect everyone else's right to do as they wish and, as I've said before, I seriously think that many parents will not send the children on a camp, and indeed will view very dimly a troop which in camping may show a disregard for health, and, of course, puts pressure from their children which may be very unwelcome.
    Vote for Boris as leader! He'll get the job done.... maybe...possibly...if... What was the question?

    ��

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 12-05-2020 at 08:26 PM.
    going...going...still here...just

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Not just me, the government is clearly saying in its 50 pager that the vulnerable - or those who feel that may be vulnerable, may wish to shield for months to come, although there is no indication that there will be any mandate, if I'd had a shielding letter I'm damn sure I'd stay home shielded too. However, I have, and will continue to, follow the rules exactly, I won't follow the invented rules of the village virologists. .
    One of our local "keyboard virologists" has recently announced their intention to visit local beauty spots and tell people they shouldn't be there. I'm not entirely sure what makes them feel they have the right to interfere with other people's legitimate actions, or why they feel its ok for them to be there if others shouldnt be.


    It's not even as though there is any consistency -My NDN's son's girlfriend lives in Switzerland, there the scientists believe that children under 10 are not only aymptomatic but can't pass it on and so all the primary schools have reopened. Who is right ? If it's the Swiss then our scientists have a lot to answer for.

    And herein lies one of the problems. Each country is relying on their own scientists. This is a global pandemic, but the science is being largely managed at a local level... rather than being properly co-ordinated by the WHO. So what we end up with is the swiss scientists saying one thing - and switzerland acting on it... while the uk scientists say something different and the UK act on it. All for the same flipping virus.

    Given the way viruses are transmitted, its likely that asymptomatic carriers have a relatively low risk of passing it on (https://www.who.int/docs/default-sou...3-covid-19.pdf) and even the risk of pre-symptomatic carriers passing it on is far lower than that of people who are exhibiting symptoms. Its therefore not unlikely that the swiss might be right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    One of our local "keyboard virologists" has recently announced their intention to visit local beauty spots and tell people they shouldn't be there. I'm not entirely sure what makes them feel they have the right to interfere with other people's legitimate actions, or why they feel its ok for them to be there if others shouldnt be.
    You could point out that such behaviour could constitute a breach of the peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    And herein lies one of the problems. Each country is relying on their own scientists. This is a global pandemic, but the science is being largely managed at a local level... rather than being properly co-ordinated by the WHO. So what we end up with is the swiss scientists saying one thing - and switzerland acting on it... while the uk scientists say something different and the UK act on it. All for the same flipping virus.
    Sound painfully familiar of another organisations set up... can't possibly think which one!
    Last edited by dsheehan; 12-05-2020 at 09:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    You could point out that such behaviour could constitute a breach of the peace.
    I've given up pointing anything out to such idiots.

    I will happily discuss or debate with people on this forum, because generally the people on this forum are sensible, reasonable human beings who are capable of having a reasoned discussion. There is no-one i've met on this forum who i wouldnt happily buy a pint if i met them in real life. There are people on this forum who are more "fearful" of Covid than me (often with good reason) but I dont think anyone on here is paranoid to the point of insanity!!

    The idiots on our local facebook group on the other hand really aren't worth it. The "If you go out you WILL end up in intensive care" fraternity. The "I wont send my child back to school until they're 18" sorority. The "people who are following the law and going out when they're allowed to are murderers" type.

    I'm not convinced its a great idea for people to be travelling long distances. I'd have rather seen a greater unlocking of local services whilst keeping people restricted to their local area. I guess thats because I live in an area that is likely to see an influx of tourists from Birmingham, Worcester and Bristol this weekend buying food from our local shops while they're in the area and bringing the virus to what has so far been a fairly "safe" area.

    But its not my job to tell people what they can and cannot do. The laws are there, and as much as i might complain about them, i'm obliged to follow them.

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    One of our local "keyboard virologists" has recently announced their intention to visit local beauty spots and tell people they shouldn't be there. I'm not entirely sure what makes them feel they have the right to interfere with other people's legitimate actions, or why they feel its ok for them to be there if others shouldnt be.
    So the local keyboard warrior is going to go to where there could potentially be lots of people and out and about possibly getting infected as well and adding to the any possible crowd? has this flaw been pointed out?

    One of the Advantages of doing Scouting and being near to the HQ is that you know all the local paths/trails and cut throughs ( set plenty of trails where the scouts have had to take a number form a lampost and then add/subtract something from it to get a compass bearing for the next clue) plus when travelling a little bit further you know where all the honey pots are where people gather for walks ( basically anywhere with a rural car park) as well as the busy footpaths and the ones where you wont usually see anyone ( the empty paths always seem to be near the busy routes) so staying local and avoiding busy areas is easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    So the local keyboard warrior is going to go to where there could potentially be lots of people and out and about possibly getting infected as well and adding to the any possible crowd? has this flaw been pointed out?

    One of the Advantages of doing Scouting and being near to the HQ is that you know all the local paths/trails and cut throughs ( set plenty of trails where the scouts have had to take a number form a lampost and then add/subtract something from it to get a compass bearing for the next clue) plus when travelling a little bit further you know where all the honey pots are where people gather for walks ( basically anywhere with a rural car park) as well as the busy footpaths and the ones where you wont usually see anyone ( the empty paths always seem to be near the busy routes) so staying local and avoiding busy areas is easy.
    Along the Wye valley, anything alongside the river or parallel to the river along the hilltops will be busy. Anything that doesn't have a view of the river is likely to be far quieter. And yes as a scouter you tend to learn where there are little pull ins and laybys to park away from the main car parks

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    And yes as a scouter you tend to learn where there are little pull ins and laybys to park away from the main car parks
    Nice to see scouters and doggers have one thing in common.
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    We did a night hike a couple of years ago, and at one point about two thirds of the way round we had a stop for a hot drink (soup hot chocolate), the leaders setting up the stop decided to have it in a remote car park that was on the route as opposed to the planned layby as there are picnic benches present.
    The intention was not to stop at this location due to its reputation.
    Low and behold despite being told of this car park and its reputation they pull up in it, a good few minutes ahead of us and wait in the car, soon to be joined by two other random people who stood at the car for a few minutes.

    After a phone call the break spot was moved to somewhere a little less known

    S

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