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Thread: Scouting coming out of Lockdown

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    Map Geek marcush's Avatar
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    Scouting coming out of Lockdown

    It got me thinking after seeing the First Ministers Route Map today for Scotland that Scouting could look very different after and be at different stages depending whether your in England or a devolved nation.

    Scottish schools for example are planning on going back after summer, but mass gatherings are further down in the phases.

    I also believe that covid-19 could will cause a membership drop ... and not just one for the sake of census and that includes adult volunteers who have been assessing what they are doing.

    I think districts and countries/areas/regions will need to be properly looked at to see how viable they really are and I think TSA will need to look at it's organisation outside HQ to fit this new normal.

    Rule 66. A map and compass offers no protection against getting horribly lost.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    There is a potential timeline that could allow SOME actvities by September.

    I agree though, whatever comes it is not going to be what we were doing before, for quite some time.

    I suspect that we may well see numbers drop - adults who also care for elderly parents may decide to step back rather than take the risk. People may take the extended break as an opportunity to say they have had enough/ found other interests etc..

    We can only wait and see what the future brings. I have been sounding out people on my team and, in general, there is still support to re-open. However, I am aware that there may be a change of tune should schools re-opening result in a resurgence of the virus.

    In Scouting, some groups may need to seriously consider their viability and how they can function.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    I have been thinking about this same topic today. No matter which day we come out of this, we will not be going back to the old norm. Sadly though I am not sure what the new norm will look like. I suspect some form of phased return for us, perhaps with smaller section sizes initially. Some parents may not want to send little Johnny back for a month or two more but wants to remain a scout. Hmmmm

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    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcush View Post
    I think districts and countries/areas/regions will need to be properly looked at to see how viable they really are and I think TSA will need to look at it's organisation outside HQ to fit this new normal.
    That was certainly the view at the members all call that Tim and Matt hosted at the end of April.
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    people are pushing for a date, and expecting roadmaps with dates attached - ie on 1st june we will have a contact tracing app, schools will re-opne and so on.
    the reality is that no one knows, and its foolish to attach fixed dates to anything, things could open up sooner than we expect, or be much later, we could even have a second wave worse than the current outbreak - who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    people are pushing for a date, and expecting roadmaps with dates attached - ie on 1st june we will have a contact tracing app, schools will re-opne and so on.
    the reality is that no one knows, and its foolish to attach fixed dates to anything, things could open up sooner than we expect, or be much later, we could even have a second wave worse than the current outbreak - who knows.
    I think the issue with 1st June is... it's very very close now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I think the issue with 1st June is... it's very very close now!
    And theres a bank holiday between then and now.
    It would be nice to see some sort of follow up from TSA and pusshing out some ideas on how we can return to face to face scouting and in what form, and not so much on when.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    And theres a bank holiday between then and now.
    It would be nice to see some sort of follow up from TSA and pusshing out some ideas on how we can return to face to face scouting and in what form, and not so much on when.

    For the record, I’m probably closer to Campwarden than Bushfella in terms of attitude towards moving things forward and learning to live with the risk of COVID. I really want us to be back face-to-face – Zoom is a temporary (and hard work) workaround and not a solution.

    However, to be honest, I’d rather NOT have any statement from TSA at this point.

    I think the real danger is that if we rush to get back as soon as we possibly can, that will come with a whole raft of caveats/procedures/regulations/policies/COVID-19 Risk Assessments – call them what you will - to enable us to offer (and to be seen to be offering) Scouting in a safe environment. Whilst this is of course necessary, the earlier we try to go back, the more restrictions will be in place. We certainly cannot afford any adverse publicity (and in these days when there is so little other news, we could become an “easy target”).

    I want to enjoy my Scouting – that’s not going to be easy if COVID-19 arrangements take up as much, if not more time than planning the actual activity and if leaders’ focus is on those rather than on the activity itself.

    It is far easier to place restrictions than to relax them – especially when they were in place for “safety” reasons. Pre-judging "how" we could return to Scouting when we don't actually know under what circumstances we might be able to runs the risk that we tie ourselves up in knots.

    So…. I’m happy to TSA to be silent for the time being – let’s see what actually happens on June 1st and the following 2 or 3 weeks – see how schools going back actually works, see what further relaxations the Government allows/doesn’t allow, see how public opinion goes. Let’s not go back too early with restrictions that then prove difficult to relax.
    Kate, CSL (and GDB(S))
    1st Weald Brook Scout Group
    Brentwood, Essex
    www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk

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    This is one of the things that scares me. "Did you contract covid 19 and it wasn't your fault. Our no win no fee solicitors will get you the compensation you deserve"

    How many processes will be in place because they actually have a significant effect on risk... and how many because people are backside-covering?

    Here's a good one from the archery club... bows are expensive. Beginners tend to use club kit. But archery GB is advising against use of hire kit unless it's on long term loan.

    As a club we came up with the more pragmatic approach of cleaning the hard part of the bow between each use, and each archer buying their own string as these are cheap but harder to clean.

    Another fun one is toilets. The campsite community is terrified of being sued if someone contracts the virus due to sharing toilet facilities. And yet by the time campsites reopen people will be sharing workplace and school toilets, and some public loos are back open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    This is one of the things that scares me. "Did you contract covid 19 and it wasn't your fault. Our no win no fee solicitors will get you the compensation you deserve"

    How many processes will be in place because they actually have a significant effect on risk... and how many because people are backside-covering?

    Here's a good one from the archery club... bows are expensive. Beginners tend to use club kit. But archery GB is advising against use of hire kit unless it's on long term loan.

    As a club we came up with the more pragmatic approach of cleaning the hard part of the bow between each use, and each archer buying their own string as these are cheap but harder to clean.

    Another fun one is toilets. The campsite community is terrified of being sued if someone contracts the virus due to sharing toilet facilities. And yet by the time campsites reopen people will be sharing workplace and school toilets, and some public loos are back open.
    This comes back to an aspect of the "viral load" issue. It is almost impossible to avoid contact with everyone and the air they breathe and the surfaces they touch and breathe over. Point is that people will still get it, but nevertheless if numbers are few enough it will eventually die out. So you only have the contact and take the risks you need. Scouting is much harder to run whilst social distancing, and a camp would be an occasion on which it would be very hard to avoid spreading if someone brought it in.

    I suppose the key is that however much we hate the though Scouting really isn't essential - the vast majority of the population get through their lives having never attended. Education clearly is essential. So if you want to minimise spread you don't do the non essential activities, and even the most enthusiastic among us put Scouting below family, friends and work... So that says to me that Scouting is one of the last activities to return.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post

    Here's a good one from the archery club... bows are expensive. Beginners tend to use club kit. But archery GB is advising against use of hire kit unless it's on long term loan.
    Government guidelines do. I believe, restrict equipment access to your own kit. Which would currently rule out multiple use of equipment.

    I must admit that looking forward, I had seen archery as an activity that we could offer and social distance - I had not really considered how we would clean the strings. Having to restring between users would be problematical - The kids cannot restring the bows, so an adult would have to do the restringing - therebye compromising the safety procedure. Buying every member their own string is absolutely possible, but managing the kit would become a challenge - what string goes where and with which bow, and where is Smithy's string pouch...

    Is there any idea of the impact of various sterilisers on the Dacron? I'd hate to think of it embrittling the Dacron and it suddenly snapping under tension...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellow Beaver View Post
    For the record, I’m probably closer to Campwarden than Bushfella in terms of attitude towards moving things forward and learning to live with the risk of COVID. I really want us to be back face-to-face – Zoom is a temporary (and hard work) workaround and not a solution.
    Actually, reading your thinking - you are not far off where I am in this regards. I think it would be hugely damaging for us to go back before people were ready.

    In a discussion with my Exec ( remember we are independent so not bound by TSA) we came to the conclusion that we should make no announcements on restarting until we knew that we could restart safely, and within government guidelines.

    All being well, I suspect that we might get some activity this August - but not camps, and it will be built around some social distancing.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Government guidelines do. I believe, restrict equipment access to your own kit. Which would currently rule out multiple use of equipment.

    I must admit that looking forward, I had seen archery as an activity that we could offer and social distance - I had not really considered how we would clean the strings. Having to restring between users would be problematical - The kids cannot restring the bows, so an adult would have to do the restringing - therebye compromising the safety procedure. Buying every member their own string is absolutely possible, but managing the kit would become a challenge - what string goes where and with which bow, and where is Smithy's string pouch...

    Is there any idea of the impact of various sterilisers on the Dacron? I'd hate to think of it embrittling the Dacron and it suddenly snapping under tension...

    - - - Updated - - -



    Actually, reading your thinking - you are not far off where I am in this regards. I think it would be hugely damaging for us to go back before people were ready.

    In a discussion with my Exec ( remember we are independent so not bound by TSA) we came to the conclusion that we should make no announcements on restarting until we knew that we could restart safely, and within government guidelines.

    All being well, I suspect that we might get some activity this August - but not camps, and it will be built around some social distancing.
    The BCU guidance for centres has procedures in place for hiring kit, and loads of kayak hire places have reopened including hired BAs....

    The government guidance is:
    It is a decision for facility managers whether or not they hire out equipment.

    We would expect them to follow sensible precautions and clean in between users, as well as the safely working guidance.

    Where possible we recommend that you limit sharing of equipment, for example you should use your own tennis racquet, golf club or basketball, but if you do, practice strict hand hygiene.

    If you are sharing equipment, including balls, you should wash your hands thoroughly before and after use.
    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...and-recreation

    Is the reference link to look at.

    Ewan - I'll get back to you on the strings issue as it's something we are trying to find out about as a club

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    The BCU guidance for centres has procedures in place for hiring kit, and loads of kayak hire places have reopened including hired BAs....
    The guidance remains 1:1 coaching, and it does allow for family groups, but BC guidance on kit has always been that it is cleaned between uses (though not between users). Looking at the practicalities of hiring kit, on a low uptake, it would be easy to comply with cleaning.

    When the initial guidance was given, it was stated "own equipment" - the example they gave was golf.

    The whole problem with what we are seeing from government is a lack of clarity in the detail that matters - it has been like this since Day 1.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    The guidance remains 1:1 coaching, and it does allow for family groups, but BC guidance on kit has always been that it is cleaned between uses (though not between users). Looking at the practicalities of hiring kit, on a low uptake, it would be easy to comply with cleaning.

    When the initial guidance was given, it was stated "own equipment" - the example they gave was golf.

    The whole problem with what we are seeing from government is a lack of clarity in the detail that matters - it has been like this since Day 1.
    Totally agree about the coaching issue... I'm not for one second suggesting you'd be able to start navigator archery or kayaking yet.

    As an archery club we have a decent number of coaches and instructors and plenty of outdoor space (plus the option to set up an additional temporary range on a nearby farm if we really want to spread people out). So dealing with beginners wouldn't be too difficult.

    I agree the initial guidance was own equipment but over time detail has evolved. The only way to do things correctly is to read everything in full detail. A lot of clubs have chosen to keep toilets closed which, when reading the guidance, is unnecessary. The hard part is tracking the changes. Its not a problem being behind the times as things relax... might need more attention though if things tighten again.

    I'm not an expert on how canoe clubs work... One thing AGB has made very clear is that they are only providing guidance and it's up to clubs to design their own processes within the government's laws.

    One area where there's a lot of confusion is what is law / rule and what is guidance / advice. I guess it's like the old confusion between POR and Factsheets. Obviously laws have to be obeyed whereas there may be times when a local risk assessment deviates from guidance.

    One area that's causing confusion is "what is a takeaway". The local farm shop isn't allowing people to use their picnic benches to eat and drink because that's on the premises even though they can spread them far and wide over a field. Meanwhile the cafe in the park has council owned park benches all around it which aren't owned by the park so people can buy food and drink and sit to eat it there, fairly close together. We'd all agree I think that picnic benches spread across a 5 acre field are safer than a load of benches close together in the park...

    (As aside the farmer is now finding litter from his own farm shop takeaway all over the farm where people are picnicking elsewhere along the footpaths... He's very keen to get people using his benches and bins!)

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    It seems to me, what ever ends up happening, it won't be until at least autumn - which seems reasonable.

    I think it's been proven, that what ever TSA decides, it needs to be concise and given with plenty of notice for digestion.

    It frustrates me (slightly) that older sections in specific circumstances (after August, not right now), could be out doing things. But, for TSA to put that into a written form that can be communicated effectively, would be exceedingly difficult (as already proven). So we're limited in that regard too.

    Groups do not react to information in the same way individuals do. (As has been made obvious...)

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