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Thread: Planning for AFTER Lockdown

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    NO, the premises owner's RA should not (MUST NOT) be edited. If they have identified risks and mitigation then those should be adhered to as a minimum. It should not be editable.

    The users should add their own RA to overlayer the Premises RA..

    So they can take the original RA and add a supplementary RA to cover their operation, but they should not be editing the original in any way or form. The original needs to be retained as it stands, if it is substandard by the users' definitions, those shortfalls are met in the users' RA.

    If we are going to do this, we MUST do it right.
    The template system we sometimes use involves creating a risk assessment in excel with an extra column for "additional control measures". The main risk assessment cells are then locked so only the extra control measures, and maybe some spare rows at the bottom, can be edited.

    Maybe "added to" is a better term than "edited"?

    I agree that the core risk assessment should be followed, but it might come with "options" to choose from depending on the circumstances.

  2. #242
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    The template system we sometimes use involves creating a risk assessment in excel with an extra column for "additional control measures". The main risk assessment cells are then locked so only the extra control measures, and maybe some spare rows at the bottom, can be edited.

    Maybe "added to" is a better term than "edited"?

    I agree that the core risk assessment should be followed, but it might come with "options" to choose from depending on the circumstances.

    After a couple of weeks posting on Scout forums, I am aware that what is said on these pages is often taken as a lead from those who cannot be bothered to find out for themselves.
    Ewan Scott

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    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    After a couple of weeks posting on Scout forums, I am aware that what is said on these pages is often taken as a lead from those who cannot be bothered to find out for themselves.
    You were quite right to jump in with that correction. Like I said, "added to" would have been a better phrase than "edited"

    If a user group disagrees with something on the hall owners RA, or feels it introduces an additional risk (e.g. leaving doors open for ventilation presenting a risk to young children) then that should be discussed with the hall owner rather than just edited or ignored

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    Reading the document referred to on the other thread you will need to write RAs for all activities including opening and closing your meeting, so all games will need their WRA. Iím still considering whether we will need separate WRAs for each hike or paddle. We currently have ones which cover those activities and will go over them with the teams before going out. Question is will the ones we currently have do and maybe closer to the activity consider do we need to add anything specific to the trip or are we going to do a new one for each time. Same for camping. I may have misread the document (certainly hope so) but current reading of it is WRA for everything.
    That does rather seems to be the jist of it.

    It's too much for me though, on a number of levels.

  5. #245
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    Reading the document referred to on the other thread you will need to write RAs for all activities including opening and closing your meeting, so all games will need their WRA. Iím still considering whether we will need separate WRAs for each hike or paddle. We currently have ones which cover those activities and will go over them with the teams before going out. Question is will the ones we currently have do and maybe closer to the activity consider do we need to add anything specific to the trip or are we going to do a new one for each time. Same for camping. I may have misread the document (certainly hope so) but current reading of it is WRA for everything.

    That was my reading of it as well.

    It makes no allowances. So, unless you walk or paddle a route almost immediately before you actually follow that route, you cannot provide an accurate RA - maybe less critical on land, but on a river? I could do an RA for the Irwell from Ramsbottom to Burrs based on my last experience. But the Irwell rises and falls at the drop of a hat. It can be up by 3 metres at Burrs one day and be a scrape the following morning - and vice versa. We have been paddling the loop from the weir down and you can see the water level drop maybe two inches in an hour. Equally, we have been on the water there and even though it is NOT raining at Burrs, we can see the water level rising rather quickly due to upstream precipitation.
    The RA would need to be full of is and buts, and maybes. What about the tree that fell overnight - it happens.

    One relatively safe bit of the Calder is a good starter for kids, they can feel the movement of the water on the flat river, there is a "safe" weir, a little rapid to the left of a small island. We have done this many times. One week the route was clear. The next there was a tree branch across the route. On another run, I had misjudged the paddlers ( not mine - I should have known better), and four ended up caught in a strainer that wasn't there the week before - all recovered safely.

    The risk here is that we write all these RA for everything that we do and there becomes no allowance for dynamic assessment, and if and when we do have an incident, if it is not covered by the RA, then we get hung out to dry. I say we, because I accept that TSA is the reference, the benchmark for what we all do.

    That then becomes a problem. It is also a problem for other bodies who may find that they too have to follow ever restrictive practices - imagine no-one under 18 being able to do anything other than paddle down the Lesse. (In the Ardennes - you hire kayaks and off you go on a trip down the lazy river. A big adventure for some, but to kids used to a bit more it becomes a water-based live action capture the boat, with French and Belgian tourists scurrying for cover from the lunatic Brits.)
    Ewan Scott

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    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    You can only RA what you can think about. Some of the things you mention you could put an identified risk and mitigation in for e.g. tree down, go round either by paddling or portage. But dealing with it on the river would be a dynamic action. One of the things I worry about with the new approach is that once a leader has written the RA they will stop thinking and not do dynamic RAs as the activity proceeds.

    What is it they say, familiarity breeds contempt? The more effort we spend doing written RA for things like opening and closing meetings the less meaningful they will become. It’ll become a box that needs ticked so it’s done with the least amount of effort with the resultant lack of quality.

    It is going to be a real PItA. It will stop on the fly changes, it will result in dumbing down of activities. Last camp we had we ran a trading post type game. Lots of simple actities that could be done in an hour (put someone in the recovery position, tie knots, recite names phonetically etc.). For some reason it fired the explorers competitiveness and they wanted to do it all weekend, so everything became part of the competition. I could have done a written RA For the base activity but to add other things in as we effectvitynran to keep ahead of them, wouldn’t have happened.

  7. #247
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    There's no reason why "conduct a dynamic risk assessment" can't appear as a control measure on your main risk assessment.

    E.g.

    Hazard: Fluctuating River Levels during periods of wet/dry weather
    Control Measure: Conduct a dynamic risk assessment on arrival and continue to assess throughout the activity. Be prepared to cancel activity if necessary.

    Its exactly the same for any event or activity - unless you only write the risk assessment the night before it's anyone's guess what the weather conditions and ground conditions are going to be like.

  8. #248
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    There's no reason why "conduct a dynamic risk assessment" can't appear as a control measure on your main risk assessment.

    E.g.

    Hazard: Fluctuating River Levels during periods of wet/dry weather
    Control Measure: Conduct a dynamic risk assessment on arrival and continue to assess throughout the activity. Be prepared to cancel activity if necessary.


    Its exactly the same for any event or activity - unless you only write the risk assessment the night before it's anyone's guess what the weather conditions and ground conditions are going to be like.

    This is exactly what we do anyway. But if they want that dynamic element covered before we go, then it isn't going to happen, we do not all have crystal balls.

    I always argues about hillwalking that if you got up in the morning and the weather was not going to hold fair, you did something else. It is one thing for you and your own to go out and brave the elements, quite another to lead others. For most people there is no joy in getting cold, wet and beaten by the wind - just for the experience of doing the walk.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  9. #249
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    Just spotted this on the government website - it specifically mentions Scouts.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...id-19-outbreak

    Probably useful information to share with parents when they are making decisions about sending kids back to scouts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also here is the government guidance for the actual providers (doesnt mention SCouts by name but does reference "Uniformed organisations"

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...consider-group

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Just spotted this on the government website - it specifically mentions Scouts.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...id-19-outbreak

    Probably useful information to share with parents when they are making decisions about sending kids back to scouts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also here is the government guidance for the actual providers (doesnt mention SCouts by name but does reference "Uniformed organisations"

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...consider-group
    Thanks - that's exactly the sort of thing I was after.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    There's no reason why "conduct a dynamic risk assessment" can't appear as a control measure on your main risk assessment.

    E.g.

    Hazard: Fluctuating River Levels during periods of wet/dry weather
    Control Measure: Conduct a dynamic risk assessment on arrival and continue to assess throughout the activity. Be prepared to cancel activity if necessary.

    Its exactly the same for any event or activity - unless you only write the risk assessment the night before it's anyone's guess what the weather conditions and ground conditions are going to be like.
    Does this mean for everything else we can say something like this in our WRA's

    Hazard: [insert name of activity here]
    Control Measure: Conduct a dynamic risk assessment on arrival and continue to assess throughout the activity. Be prepared to cancel activity if necessary.

    Maybe we should get that on our new scout hall sign?


  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Just spotted this on the government website - it specifically mentions Scouts.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...id-19-outbreak

    Probably useful information to share with parents when they are making decisions about sending kids back to scouts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also here is the government guidance for the actual providers (doesnt mention SCouts by name but does reference "Uniformed organisations"

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...consider-group

    That's interesting - the original had a contradiction... it previously said groups of six, then later in the text said fifteen. No matter, our parents are not happy with an early start back anyway.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  13. #253
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I always argues about hillwalking that if you got up in the morning and the weather was not going to hold fair, you did something else. It is one thing for you and your own to go out and brave the elements, quite another to lead others. For most people there is no joy in getting cold, wet and beaten by the wind - just for the experience of doing the walk.
    Sort of like...deciding not to go up Snowdon and take a day trip to Llandudno instead?
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
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  15. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Sort of like...deciding not to go up Snowdon and take a day trip to Llandudno instead?
    Well, quite. What do they now propose they do? Sit in the tent reading a book?

    It's probably more dangerous in the town (from cars etc) than it is on the Orme unless you go and do something blindingly stupid[1] in the face of your peers telling you it's blindingly stupid.

    [1] Ish. It's the sort of thing I would do and have done (albeit not with YP involved)...if there's a chance to climb on something...

  16. #255
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    Doing a wra is of no use to me. I'm still in lockdown and my carers only visit twice a day; many days I'm stuck in bed. No hair cut and just one visitor (in the garden) etc. People in Leicester are better off. My dbs renewal has just gone in to Atlantic for a group advisor. No word from scouting. 15 weeks of nothingness. Just finished studies of calculus and now studying Caldwell and messier objects.

    No scouting.No mention of scouting. Been left out (or rather left in bed). Had a phone call from a consultant. Going good on my test scores - best figures ever achieved, but my legs are woefully weak - miss my physio.

    Don't think there'll be a need for my advice. I can't really help with wra stuff as my right hand is weak. It's taken an hour to do this post.

    Still happy but it's getting tougher.

    Keep safe!

    DG
    Deo Gratis 😀
    going...going...still here...just

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