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Thread: Planning for AFTER Lockdown

  1. #931
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I think that you are all being a tad pessimistic about the future of TSA.

    I suspect that if push came to shove, some wealthy benefactors might step in, possibly with conditions attached, but we have seen that in sponsorship over the years anyway. As an "institution" I also suspect that the government might well find some way of assisting, though they would need to be very careful about how they did it as there would absolutely be others in the queue if there was funding like that available.
    Ewan Scott

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  2. #932
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    the historic abuse claim problem once and for all.

    'historic abuse' is a dreadful term that we should stamp out.

    1. It ignore the long lasting consequences to the abused
    2. it suggests that it does not happen any more and is all history

  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    'historic abuse' is a dreadful term that we should stamp out.

    1. It ignore the long lasting consequences to the abused
    2. it suggests that it does not happen any more and is all history
    While I agree that both your points are valid... it is abuse that happened historically.

    Should modern scouting be punished for abuse that happened 30 years ago? Does money put it right? Should the focus not be in catching and punishing the abuser if they are still alive?

    Abuse certainly does still happen, but claims for abuse 30 years ago don't stop todays abusers. If that abuser is still active in a role then definitely they need to be removed from scouting. But the real focus for safeguarding should be stopping present and future abuse.

    Anyone who harms kids (in any way) should be kept securely as far away from kids as possible. Whether they are a teacher, scout leader, parent or sibling.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to campwarden For This Useful Post:

    dralphs (21-12-2020),Neil Williams (20-12-2020),SteveF (20-12-2020)

  5. #934
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    The Christmas message from the DC arrived on Christmas Eve. On the plus side some good news about buying a small plot of wooded land and plans to develop it for use. On the down side if a section returns zero members in the census it will not be allowed open during 2021. I can see that one going down well with parents especially if they decide to go to the press to complain. If the TSA had any sense they would have said during this year when you join or restart you take the TSA membership fee and pass it on to HQ and not particularly worry about a census.

  6. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    The Christmas message from the DC arrived on Christmas Eve. On the plus side some good news about buying a small plot of wooded land and plans to develop it for use. On the down side if a section returns zero members in the census it will not be allowed open during 2021. I can see that one going down well with parents especially if they decide to go to the press to complain. If the TSA had any sense they would have said during this year when you join or restart you take the TSA membership fee and pass it on to HQ and not particularly worry about a census.
    The answer to that is "here's my resignation, then"

    Nobody should be returning zero if they are a Section with any members. If the Sections are genuinely closed, e.g. delete the YP off OSM as well, then it's valid to do so even if it reopens on 1st Feb, provided this isn't done for "fraudulent" reasons which would be dishonest.

    With regard to the latter point I think you have a point - TSA would do well for it to change to being an actual annual membership fee (or even monthly) for a given named person rather than a capitation fee. It's it being a capitation fee that's causing the problem at the moment. If it was a membership fee for an individual, as you say, if you reopened on 1/2 then it would become due then and then due again 12 months later - no problem.

  7. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    The answer to that is "here's my resignation, then"

    Nobody should be returning zero if they are a Section with any members. If the Sections are genuinely closed, e.g. delete the YP off OSM as well, then it's valid to do so even if it reopens on 1st Feb, provided this isn't done for "fraudulent" reasons which would be dishonest.

    With regard to the latter point I think you have a point - TSA would do well for it to change to being an actual annual membership fee (or even monthly) for a given named person rather than a capitation fee. It's it being a capitation fee that's causing the problem at the moment. If it was a membership fee for an individual, as you say, if you reopened on 1/2 then it would become due then and then due again 12 months later - no problem.
    Compass had huge potential to facilitate the idea of ams being monthly, or at least charged based on when a member joined. E.g. if a member is there 6 months out if the year the group is charged 6 months capitation for that member. Whether the actual oayment is done monthly or at the end of the year is fairly irrelevant as the group should be reserving the funds as the year goes on.

    Making osm compulsory would also facilitate the same as I'm sure it wouldn't cost tsa a vast amount to get Ed to add the functionality...

    Not sure why the district commissioner feels the need to make threats... they should be supporting groups, not threatening them. Its all part of this shift of district from being a support function to a management one and its part of the reason I'm glad to be out of tsa

  8. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    The answer to that is "here's my resignation, then"

    Nobody should be returning zero if they are a Section with any members. If the Sections are genuinely closed, e.g. delete the YP off OSM as well, then it's valid to do so even if it reopens on 1st Feb, provided this isn't done for "fraudulent" reasons which would be dishonest.

    With regard to the latter point I think you have a point - TSA would do well for it to change to being an actual annual membership fee (or even monthly) for a given named person rather than a capitation fee. It's it being a capitation fee that's causing the problem at the moment. If it was a membership fee for an individual, as you say, if you reopened on 1/2 then it would become due then and then due again 12 months later - no problem.
    We’re not open but then again we’re not closed, we’ve just not got anyone officially signed up and we haven’t met apart from three zoom calls before the summer). For my unit we will probably look to see which of them have at least helped out as YLs in the scout section (the only one which has held some meetings) plus see if any parents are happy to pay the reduced fee we had agreed. Numbers are going to be no more than half our “normal” numbers. (Part of me wants to return a census with one, maybe two members on it just to be ****** minded about it.)

    Depressingly I had through about restarting mid January though personally I’d only planned to do outside scouting. Now with the new more virulent strain around I won’t be helping until I have the vaccine (on the plus side I turn 65 (how did I get that old so quickly?) next week so that plus being seriously ill two years ago is likely to push me up the list to get it).

    As for resigning, what on earth would I do with all the extra time?

  9. #938
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    We ( as in Group) did talk about a few options:
    If no F2F then one option would be to send out a letter to members outlining exacty what the situation was with regards to Subs and capitation/AMS
    We usually charge subs o a fixed termly rate which includes Captiation/ AMS
    one option was to ask them to pay the Captiation rate and then receive a discount on the subs payments upto the end of December 2021 equal to the sum paid for capitation over that time period.
    The anual AMS/Capitation woud be based on what was charged last year plus the HQ advertised increase, plus a little more and then rounded up to the nearest £5 ie £50/55/60
    And if they didnt pay the anual memebrship fee by the last week in January then their membership would cease, however they would be welcome to re-join again if space is available and they are still within age range when things return to normal and we will retain all records etc in case that person wants to re-join and to contact you to anounc any potential re-start unless you want the records deleting

  10. #939
    Senior Member chris@8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    We ( as in Group) did talk about a few options:
    If no F2F then one option would be to send out a letter to members outlining exacty what the situation was with regards to Subs and capitation/AMS
    We usually charge subs o a fixed termly rate which includes Captiation/ AMS
    one option was to ask them to pay the Captiation rate and then receive a discount on the subs payments upto the end of December 2021 equal to the sum paid for capitation over that time period.
    The anual AMS/Capitation woud be based on what was charged last year plus the HQ advertised increase, plus a little more and then rounded up to the nearest £5 ie £50/55/60
    And if they didnt pay the anual memebrship fee by the last week in January then their membership would cease, however they would be welcome to re-join again if space is available and they are still within age range when things return to normal and we will retain all records etc in case that person wants to re-join and to contact you to anounc any potential re-start unless you want the records deleting
    That’s exactly what we have done. 3 options - 1) say goodbye and thanks for all the fish, 2) say goodbye but allow us to keep details and we’ll get in touch when f2f resumes (but not on census), 3) pay the capitation fee and stay on our membership and census
    Chris

    Akela - 8th Mirfield
    Heavy Woollen District


  11. #940
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    The Christmas message from the DC arrived on Christmas Eve. On the plus side some good news about buying a small plot of wooded land and plans to develop it for use. On the down side if a section returns zero members in the census it will not be allowed open during 2021. I can see that one going down well with parents especially if they decide to go to the press to complain. If the TSA had any sense they would have said during this year when you join or restart you take the TSA membership fee and pass it on to HQ and not particularly worry about a census.

    I think that would be Foxtrot Oscar to that demand. What is he going to do if you do meet? He will say you are not insured. Well, just go to Gallaghers and get insurance for the interim. Job done.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  12. #941
    Senior Member johnmcmahon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I think that would be Foxtrot Oscar to that demand. What is he going to do if you do meet? He will say you are not insured. Well, just go to Gallaghers and get insurance for the interim. Job done.
    Which then broaches the question about uniform and other support.

    If it was as simple as taking out insurance and ignoring POR and WRA and every other annoyance that TSA gives us ........................ count me in.

  13. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Compass had huge potential to facilitate the idea of ams being monthly, or at least charged based on when a member joined. E.g. if a member is there 6 months out if the year the group is charged 6 months capitation for that member. Whether the actual oayment is done monthly or at the end of the year is fairly irrelevant as the group should be reserving the funds as the year goes on.
    Yes, true, and plenty of clubs and the likes ease their admin by everyone paying their renewal on the same date, but those joining mid-year paying a pro-rata fee for their joining year.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    That’s exactly what we have done. 3 options - 1) say goodbye and thanks for all the fish, 2) say goodbye but allow us to keep details and we’ll get in touch when f2f resumes (but not on census), 3) pay the capitation fee and stay on our membership and census
    I'm not sure that one is actually viable - if they have actually left you have no case for retaining their data for that purpose. If you're keeping details they haven't left.

    The only viable "workaround" I can see is that you tell them that your website or public FB page will be updated when returning to F2F, but would then need to rejoin from scratch, unless I suppose you had a waiting list policy of "anyone who's been a member of the Group before jumps the queue".

  14. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Yes, true, and plenty of clubs and the likes ease their admin by everyone paying their renewal on the same date, but those joining mid-year paying a pro-rata fee for their joining year.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm not sure that one is actually viable - if they have actually left you have no case for retaining their data for that purpose. If you're keeping details they haven't left.

    The only viable "workaround" I can see is that you tell them that your website or public FB page will be updated when returning to F2F, but would then need to rejoin from scratch, unless I suppose you had a waiting list policy of "anyone who's been a member of the Group before jumps the queue".
    In the past we have had, for want of a better description "boomerang Scouts" that is they dissapear for a good while - in some cases this could be 6 months or longer and then re- appear .


    As for keeping in touch, i cant see any reason why you couldnt send out a newsletter/info email every two months or so email it, stick it on a commnity noticeboard etc, even to former members as long as you make it clear that emil addresses etc will be kept and used for that purpose with an opt out option if anything it could be used as a youth and adult recruitment tool

  15. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I think that would be Foxtrot Oscar to that demand. What is he going to do if you do meet? He will say you are not insured. Well, just go to Gallaghers and get insurance for the interim. Job done.
    Unfortunately POR 9.1 gives them the power to stop all activities of a section though I suspect should it actually happen parents would be rather vocal about it.

  16. #945
    ASL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    Unfortunately POR 9.1 gives them the power to stop all activities of a section though I suspect should it actually happen parents would be rather vocal about it.
    I think 3.21 (c) is the one they can use "Any Section within a Group may be closed by the District Commissioner and the District Executive Committee acting together, following consultation with the Sponsoring Authority, if any."
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk

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