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Thread: Planning for AFTER Lockdown

  1. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Yes, true, and plenty of clubs and the likes ease their admin by everyone paying their renewal on the same date, but those joining mid-year paying a pro-rata fee for their joining year.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm not sure that one is actually viable - if they have actually left you have no case for retaining their data for that purpose. If you're keeping details they haven't left.

    The only viable "workaround" I can see is that you tell them that your website or public FB page will be updated when returning to F2F, but would then need to rejoin from scratch, unless I suppose you had a waiting list policy of "anyone who's been a member of the Group before jumps the queue".
    There are two ways to keep data... one is based on "need to do so", the other is based on "consent". If there is a need to do so then you don't need consent, you only need to inform.

    If on the other hand you don't "need" to keep the data you can still keep it with the consent of the subject. Keeping data with with the consent of the subject on the basis that they may wish to rejoin or have badge records transferred to another troop.

    When members left our group to move away we always offered to keep their data for 6 months so if they joined a group in their new area we could transfer their records. Every single person consented to us doing so. About 50% got in touch to ask us to transfer their data to another group (if a group got in touch on their behalf we always contacted the parents to make sure they consented to us transferring the data). The others the data was deleted after the agreed 6 months.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    I think 3.21 (c) is the one they can use "Any Section within a Group may be closed by the District Commissioner and the District Executive Committee acting together, following consultation with the Sponsoring Authority, if any."
    The problem here would come with the old rule about assets tranferring to TSA on the closure of a group. I guess you could as a group get around it by only declaring members in one section (e.g. the scout troop), reopening the other sections as independant youth groups and the scout group lending kit to the new youth groups until they could build up enough kit to break free completely. Obviously harder if you have a hut/hall to worry about, less of an issue if you just meet in rented accommodation and could simply agree with the landlord to transfer the timeslot across to the new group.

    And as, as long as the group is open, the assets are entirely the responsibility of the group executive committee - not the district, the DC wouldnt really be able to do an awful lot about it.

    I still think there are ways around the asset issue - at my old group we didnt use the standard constitution, and the constitution the group used instead stated that assets would be passed to other local charitable groups. No-one from district ever picked up on it. I imagine TSA would have a hard job trying to claim the assets through the courts. If a group happened to have a parent who was in the legal profession and willing to act pro-bono i think TSA would be unlikely to get very far as charity law would entirely support the group and its trustees in doing what was best for the group. Whereas, other than the constitution i think i'm right in saying that there is no official legal relationship between the group as a registered charity, and TSA.
    Last edited by campwarden; 28-12-2020 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #947
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    I think 3.21 (c) is the one they can use "Any Section within a Group may be closed by the District Commissioner and the District Executive Committee acting together, following consultation with the Sponsoring Authority, if any."


    Call their bluff.

    If they want to get iffy about it, then take the WOSM and District badges off the shirts and carry on. Seriously, what could they do other than take legal action. That would go down really well with the public, the local politicians, and parents.

    They are using this to force the payment of AMS when it was presumably paid for in 2020 and for most groups no Scouting took place. Money is king to these people and now they are showing it, money before people - now, where have we seen that before this past year?

    I'm sorry, if they are saying show numbers that you do not have and have not paid, or we will close down any future operation in 2021, then they are absolutely in the wrong. Scouting is supposed to play the moral game. There is no morality in demanding funds like this. If you met, then fair enough, if you didn't, then no AMS is due.

    A new group starting on the 1st February would not be paying AMS for that first 12 months. A group that restarted later in 2021 would be in exactly the same situation.

    Oh, I think my ex-DC will be so delighted that he managed to get us to jump ship. This would have been a die in the ditches battle - and we would have fought it every inch of the way. At best, we would have returned minimum membership, paid it and carried on, but with a full year out, there is no way we would be forking out - Let's presume numbers had stayed as they were, and AMS plus levies was now at £50 - £7.500 for absolutely nothing - nope. It would not be happening.

    I am now so minded that with the assts available, and faced with this scenario, I would consult with the Trustees and we would take legal counsel on how to handle this one. Thankfully, I don't have to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Y


    I'm not sure that one is actually viable - if they have actually left you have no case for retaining their data for that purpose. If you're keeping details they haven't left.
    Hmm, if you claim Gift Aid, then you need to retain all pertinent records for six years (or is it seven). The only way of maintaining accurate subs records over any period of time is to retain all appropriate data, lest someone needs to ask questions about funds - and I know of one group who failed to maintain that data and were only saved from a Police investigation by the intervention of a DC.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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  4. #948
    Yes, I've got the T-shirt Sparkgap's Avatar
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    Well, I can't see us getting back to f2f before Feb 1/2 term and maybe not then the way things are going. As for census numbers, we'll only be declaring those who are still paying subs so about 25-30%. The others will be going onto the waiting list.
    Andy
    SL 1st Wellington
    www.wellingtonscouts.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkgap View Post
    Well, I can't see us getting back to f2f before Feb 1/2 term and maybe not then the way things are going. As for census numbers, we'll only be declaring those who are still paying subs so about 25-30%. The others will be going onto the waiting list.
    Presumably that is your choice as a group / leader team rather than due to being in a red area (I'm assuming Wellington is Wellington in Somerset which isn't in T4)

    I can't in my mind work out whether there should be a difference in how TSA charges fees to groups that can't reopen or groups that choose not to reopen, but then there are probably groups that are unable to open for reasons other than being in T4 (e.g. meeting places being unavailable or leaders needing to shield)

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    Today is a good day. Vaccinations for the over 65’s opened up yesterday and I managed to get one of the early appointments today. I’m feeling more optimistic about starting back once we come out of lockdown. Still need to be careful as other half is younger and I don’t want to bring the infection into the house but I feel there is light at the end of the tunnel.

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  8. #951
    ASL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    Today is a good day. Vaccinations for the over 65ís opened up yesterday and I managed to get one of the early appointments today. Iím feeling more optimistic about starting back once we come out of lockdown. Still need to be careful as other half is younger and I donít want to bring the infection into the house but I feel there is light at the end of the tunnel.
    Glad for you but the government has not yet said that the vaccine prevents you catching it or spreading it. They just seem to imply that it will stop you getting very ill with it. At some point they will have to decide what the vaccine is good for but it is the normal obfuscation from Whitehall!
    John Alexander,
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    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk

  9. #952
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    On the down side if a section returns zero members in the census it will not be allowed open during 2021. I can see that one going down well with parents especially if they decide to go to the press to complain. If the TSA had any sense they would have said during this year when you join or restart you take the TSA membership fee and pass it on to HQ and not particularly worry about a census.
    I missed this post at the time but that DC is a fool IMHO. So close a Group and permenantly lose is membership and resultant AMS income? Rather than accept that if they have been doing no meetings of any variety for 9 months with no subs income then they legitimately have zero youth members but they obviously have the potential to add members quickly once they able to get back to normal face to face meetings. So the long term fincial interest if nothing else is in allowign the Group to continue.

    The only rules they could use to close a Group are
    3.21. Cancellation of Registration and the Closure of Sections within a Group
    a. The registration of a Scout Group may be cancelled by Headquarters:
    on the recommendation of the District Commissioner and the District Executive Committee, following a meeting specially convened;
    At such a meeting, the Scouters concerned, the Group Chair and the Sponsoring Authority, if any, are entitled to be heard;
    c. Any Section within a Group may be closed by the District Commissioner and the District Executive Committee acting together, following consultation with the Sponsoring Authority, if any.
    h. In the event of all the Members leaving, the District will close the Group and cancel its registration.
    Part a requires them to consult with the Scouters, Group Chair and any sponsoring authority, now you would hope any such consulation would bring about the relalisation that the group is likely to still be viable as and when they are able to resume normal meetings.
    Part c would only allow them to close Sections not the whole Group and I can't find any rule which requires District approval for a Group to open a new Section
    Part h follows rules about Groups not being allowed to leave TSA so from context its clearly talking about if all members leaving en masse. However as Leaders are members then not all members would have left the Group so this rule does not apply anyway.

    Thankfully we have not heard any such rumblings from our District (and I think our DCs would soon quash any such ideas) but then we have made clear to them all along that we are still meeting however we are allowed, have been able to maintain some subs income and have every intention of declaring our members on the census and paying the relevant AMS for them.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 29-01-2021 at 02:43 PM.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    Glad for you but the government has not yet said that the vaccine prevents you catching it or spreading it. They just seem to imply that it will stop you getting very ill with it. At some point they will have to decide what the vaccine is good for but it is the normal obfuscation from Whitehall!
    I understand it doesn’t mean I’m immune or won’t be infectious to others which is why I’m still going to be careful as I don’t want to bring it into the house. It hopefully (if I understand the science correctly) does mean the chances of me dying should I get the virus is greatly reduced, which given my age and recent medical history is a strong positive to me.

    It also means I feel more comfortable with thinking about starting back f2f once our local lockdown starts to ease.

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  13. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I missed this post at the time but that DC is a fool IMHO. So close a Group and permenantly lose is membership and resultant AMS income? Rather than accept that if they have been doing no meetings of any variety for 9 months with no subs income then they legitimately have zero youth members but they obviously have the potential to add members quickly once they able to get back to normal face to face meetings. So the long term fincial interest if nothing else is in allowign the Group to continue.

    The only rules they could use to close a Group are

    Part a requires them to consult with the Scouters, Group Chair and any sponsoring authority, now you would hope any such consulation would bring about the relalisation that the group is likely to still be viable as and when they are able to resume normal meetings.
    Part c would only allow them to close Sections not the whole Group and I can't find any rule which requires District approval for a Group to open a new Section
    Part h follows rules about Groups not being allowed to leave TSA so from context its clearly talking about if all members leaving en masse. However as Leaders are members then not all members would have left the Group so this rule does not apply anyway.

    Thankfully we have not heard any such rumblings from our District (and I think our DCs would soon quash any such ideas) but then we have made clear to them all along that we are still meeting however we are allowed, have been able to maintain some subs income and have every intention of declaring our members on the census and paying the relevant AMS for them.
    Out of curiosity, could a group sponsor one ( or maybe two) members in each section ie pay their AMS/capitation and declare that they have One Beaver, One Cub and One Scout ?

  14. #955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    Today is a good day. Vaccinations for the over 65’s opened up yesterday and I managed to get one of the early appointments today. I’m feeling more optimistic about starting back once we come out of lockdown. Still need to be careful as other half is younger and I don’t want to bring the infection into the house but I feel there is light at the end of the tunnel.

    I know how you feel. I had mine in early January as I work in social care. I was offered another one when they started doing over 65s and had to point out they had done me!
    Last edited by SteveF; 29-01-2021 at 11:40 PM.

  15. #956
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    This article gives a down-to-earth view of how this summer is likely to unfold in the UK:

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/summ...avirus-experts

  16. #957
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    We currently have a minor debate ongoing as to post "lockdown" events and camps:
    Do we:
    A: Tell parents/Scouts etc the proposed dates for this years summer camp and ask for a returnable deposit meaning that if by some miracle things improve enough to allow us to attend an "event" camp - planned Come to Tolmers if its happening - cant find any info one way or another ( their Facebook site is dead, no reply form emails, and the websites not much better)

    B: Do nothing, say nothing as it will be getting peoples hopes up

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    Senior Member johnmcmahon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    I understand it doesn’t mean I’m immune or won’t be infectious to others which is why I’m still going to be careful as I don’t want to bring it into the house. It hopefully (if I understand the science correctly) does mean the chances of me dying should I get the virus is greatly reduced, which given my age and recent medical history is a strong positive to me.
    I am similarly aged and have medical issues. To me I would rather have a vaccine that has shown no deaths (so far). I can live with severe flu like symptoms for a few days. In all seriousness I cannot live with death. Really looking forward to getting my dose of vaccine.

  18. #959
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    We currently have a minor debate ongoing as to post "lockdown" events and camps:
    Do we:
    A: Tell parents/Scouts etc the proposed dates for this years summer camp and ask for a returnable deposit meaning that if by some miracle things improve enough to allow us to attend an "event" camp - planned Come to Tolmers if its happening - cant find any info one way or another ( their Facebook site is dead, no reply form emails, and the websites not much better)

    B: Do nothing, say nothing as it will be getting peoples hopes up
    I have a sort of back up plan that I think i could put into action at short notice if we were suddenly allowed to camp by the summer but I am not going to book anything, ask for deposits or give out dates (I am working on the basis many won't have holidays booked this time so less likely to have a clash of dates)

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  19. #960
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmcmahon View Post
    I am similarly aged and have medical issues. To me I would rather have a vaccine that has shown no deaths (so far). I can live with severe flu like symptoms for a few days. In all seriousness I cannot live with death. Really looking forward to getting my dose of vaccine.
    Hopefully you won’t have to wait too long. Vaccine rollout seems to be going roughly to schedule across the whole country (they will likely miss by a few days and be roundly condemned by the media and sundry for not hitting an ambitious target).

    My wife has been complaining and seems disappointed I don’t have enough post injection symptoms (slightly sore point were the injection was), just wait till it’s here turn.

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