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Thread: GDPR Question.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That certainly makes sense.

    I tend to look at it as an agreement between the unit and group - which for us - is a waste of time, due to shared leadership and how we are more generally. But I can see the point in terms of the relationship between the group and district. (My issue with this area, isn't with district itself, but with how HQ are telling us to comport ourselves...)
    When i was Explorer Leader our unit was and still is very close to the Group so an agreement wasn't really necessary, but we saw that it works both ways, you tailor it to suit your circumstances and then at least everyone is clear where you stand. Especially useful if down the line someone tries to push through changes that affect how you operate.
    Dave Ralphs
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    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    When i was Explorer Leader our unit was and still is very close to the Group so an agreement wasn't really necessary, but we saw that it works both ways, you tailor it to suit your circumstances and then at least everyone is clear where you stand. Especially useful if down the line someone tries to push through changes that affect how you operate.
    That's an even more important point. There are those who assume this is me being recalcitrant generally. But, as I've said, over 14 provision stopped completely, soon after the sections all changed way back when, we have kids (and parents) who've attended and supported the group for years, with families who have siblings, the spread of years can be as much as a decade.

    Finding ourselves back in that situation, I think most would agree, would be regrettable.

    In which regard... I think i've been looking at the partnership agreement all wrong. It's not about district imposing POR on us, it's also about us being able to protect our position as a unit attached to group.
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 27-06-2020 at 09:16 AM.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    In which regard... I think i've been looking at the partnership agreement all wrong. It's not about district imposing POR on us, it's also about us being able to protect our position as a unit attached to group.
    Man the barricades! Archers to the walls! Protect the silo!

    (only teasing)
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    In which regard... I think i've been looking at the partnership agreement all wrong. It's not about district imposing POR on us, it's also about us being able to protect our position as a unit attached to group.
    The purpose of a partnership agreement is an agreement between the District whose unit it is and the Group who are providing resources and support to it, usually for a fee. It's more of a gentleman's agreement than a contract but it does have aspects of both. It just summarises the form of the relationship so both sides know what's expected of them and so reducing the chances of any disagreement between them.

    If you consider it to be a Group Unit, that'll be why it doesn't make proper sense to you - there is no such thing, even if it might (like ours does) often feel like a Group Unit.

  8. #35
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    It's an issue created by POR, that has it's solution, also in POR. It's an ouroborus rule.

    Which is very TSA really.

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  10. #36
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    Yeah
    The sooner TSA realise that they need to change POR to reflect the real world situation the better.

    Explorers as 4th section of a Group (where there is sufficient need)
    and/or
    A district Unit

    Whichever works best locally
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    Yeah
    The sooner TSA realise that they need to change POR to reflect the real world situation the better.

    Explorers as 4th section of a Group (where there is sufficient need)
    and/or
    A district Unit

    Whichever works best locally
    Really- its been what 20 years now? Anyone who hasn't made it work in the new format by now just simply doesn't want to and isn't trying!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsheehan View Post
    Really- its been what 20 years now? Anyone who hasn't made it work in the new format by now just simply doesn't want to and isn't trying!

    There are ways to make it work, but ther eare also plenty of ways to make it not work, having an ESU as part of a group, or part of a district, or even county would offer some flexibility.
    As far as i know at the moment a District Commissioner could decide that the District has one ESU and thats that. If the YP cant attend due to transport issues then tough luck

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    Lets just make official what in essence a lot of units run as
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    Lets just make official what in essence a lot of units run as
    Why? There is enough flexibility built inyo the Explorer system to allow just about any model you like. It makes absolutely zero difference to how our Unit runs that our finances are run through the District, you pretty much have to be on our Group Exec (or an Explorer parent that has signed our membership agreement and gift aid forms) to realise that the Explorers aren't a 4th Section in our Group.

    Ok it does currently help that I am both GSL and ESL but I was effectively ESL for over 10 years with someone else in the GSL role before I took on the GSL role as well as being ESL and it worked exactly the same.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 29-06-2020 at 08:32 PM.

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  18. #41
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    It was working fine, until it wasn't.

    It depends on who is in what role, and how closely they want to stick to POR, or the 'spirit' of Explorers, (for spirit, read awkward). It's massively subjective, so massively prone to individual interpretation.

    It also never suited rural districts, or districts that weren't particularly joined up. (Heck, even when ours was, it didn't work.)

    The assumption that Explorers just works, is a curious one... Why do these threads always pop up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    The assumption that Explorers just works, is a curious one... Why do these threads always pop up?
    I don't think that is anyone's assumption, certainly not mine. However the assumption that the set up is why it doesn't work is IMHO an erroneuous one. Its when people refuse to use the flexibility within the Explorer set up to provide the best solution for the circumstances of their District.

    You might think allowing Explorer to be formally incuded in Groups would solve the issue but you would just be exchanging one issue for another. For example if a District has a very successful set up of District Explorer Units that happen not to be closely partnered with any Groups and then Groups decided they all want their own ESU because they are allowed now and instead of a successful set of District Units you end up with loads of smaller Units which aren't sustainable and don't have enough Leaders.

    IMHO the issue is much better solved by DCs, DESCs and GSLs actually performing their roles as set out in POR rule 4.14 in agreeing on the opening and closing of ESUs to ensure the best provision of Explorer Scouting in their District.
    4.14. The Formation and Closure of Explorer Scout Units
    The opening and closing of Explorer Scout Units is the responsibility of the District Commissioner in consultation with the District Explorer Scout Commissioner, District Executive Committee and Group Scout Leaders.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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  21. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    IMHO the issue is much better solved by DCs, DESCs and GSLs actually performing their roles as set out in POR rule 4.14 in agreeing on the opening and closing of ESUs to ensure the best provision of Explorer Scouting in their District.
    But in the real world they often don't.

    Round my way Explorer provision has always been hampered by the politics of the people who are in the "positions of power".

    If GSL A doesn't like the DESC then they will not support the siting of an ESU at their Group.

    If GSL B is hand in glove with the DESC then they will force through changes to the ESU that the ESU Leaders don't want or need.

    If GSL C is not popular with the DC then they are not allowed to have an ESU sited at their Group even though they have enough members and Leaders to support one and there isn't enough space at the existing units.

    All above from experience.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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  23. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I don't think that is anyone's assumption, certainly not mine. However the assumption that the set up is why it doesn't work is IMHO an erroneuous one. Its when people refuse to use the flexibility within the Explorer set up to provide the best solution for the circumstances of their District.

    You might think allowing Explorer to be formally incuded in Groups would solve the issue but you would just be exchanging one issue for another. For example if a District has a very successful set up of District Explorer Units that happen not to be closely partnered with any Groups and then Groups decided they all want their own ESU because they are allowed now and instead of a successful set of District Units you end up with loads of smaller Units which aren't sustainable and don't have enough Leaders.

    IMHO the issue is much better solved by DCs, DESCs and GSLs actually performing their roles as set out in POR rule 4.14 in agreeing on the opening and closing of ESUs to ensure the best provision of Explorer Scouting in their District.

    4.14. The Formation and Closure of Explorer Scout Units
    The opening and closing of Explorer Scout Units is the responsibility of the District Commissioner in consultation with the District Explorer Scout Commissioner, District Executive Committee and Group Scout Leaders
    Yup.

    I don't agree with that, possibly for reasons I've already stated around rural districts. I don't think the DC is best placed to know what's best for Explorer provision, in all cases. I also think it causes a subtle but very effective shift in responsibility. Sure, on the surface it might look like nothing, but moving responsibility for over 14 provision away from groups I think in some cases, (as it was for our district), meant the end of provision - purely and only because district teams can be hellishly out of touch with what's going on a groups.

    And I've never bought into the notion that having that age group structured the way it is, was necessary. Sure, it was an option, and it worked in places. But it's turned out to be a hammer to crack a nut.

    As you've said, all that is required is a wee bit of flexibility. Which is fine, because I think we'll end up getting that. But the hoops we have to jump through, and I think the expectation of a completely different set of people that we're having to satisfy in order to restart over-14 provision, (our GSL know's how we run Scouts so knows how we'd run Explorers), means there's more work, and more pressure (perceived or not) to do what they want us to do and not what we know will work for our members - who they've never even met or visited on a troop/unit night.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    But in the real world they often don't.

    Round my way Explorer provision has always been hampered by the politics of the people who are in the "positions of power".

    If GSL A doesn't like the DESC then they will not support the siting of an ESU at their Group.

    If GSL B is hand in glove with the DESC then they will force through changes to the ESU that the ESU Leaders don't want or need.

    If GSL C is not popular with the DC then they are not allowed to have an ESU sited at their Group even though they have enough members and Leaders to support one and there isn't enough space at the existing units.

    All above from experience.
    That was kind of how it was way back in the day here, but it's not like that now. We ran for years and got on well enough, but I think since we stopped and now hope to restart, district bods are perhaps thinking we should start from a slightly different waypoint - one more in keeping with their idea of what Explorers is, and not ours.

    I'm sure it'll be fine though.

  24. #45
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    Funny, every time this comes up, it's GSL's wanting more control. Their group is amazing and is the best place to have Explorers. You're power mad I tell you!


    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    As you've said, all that is required is a wee bit of flexibility. Which is fine, because I think we'll end up getting that. But the hoops we have to jump through, and I think the expectation of a completely different set of people that we're having to satisfy in order to restart over-14 provision, (our GSL know's how we run Scouts so knows how we'd run Explorers), means there's more work, and more pressure (perceived or not) to do what they want us to do and not what we know will work for our members - who they've never even met or visited on a troop/unit night.
    ....district bods are perhaps thinking we should start from a slightly different waypoint - one more in keeping with their idea of what Explorers is, and not ours.

    I'm sure it'll be fine though.
    So, what's occurring then? Actually? What are they actually asking for? They sound happy for you to start Explorers if...?
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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