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Thread: GDPR Question.

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    GDPR Question.

    We're looking to restart our Explorer Unit, we have a ton of kids getting to that age.

    We don't have a district unit. As far as I can gather, there are a number of units attached groups - effectively acting as a fourth section, so to speak.

    That being said. In terms of GDPR, does the DESC need the names of all Scouts approaching Explorer-age? I get it for a district unit, but if they're not effectively going anywhere?

    I don't mind either way, I can give the DESC access through OSM or just pass info along. (Standard concerns around bypassing leaders with emails about activities not-with-standing...)

    Ta.

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    In terms of GDPR and POR, the District Exec are the data controllers for Explorer data, so they should ultimately decide who has access (and why).

    We are on the district end of the group - district Explorer spectrum, but we are on the independent unit end of the unit - district spectrum.

    As such, the DESC does not have direct access to our youth data (they have never ask for such access). The District has never had a DESA.
    Last edited by khoomei; 23-06-2020 at 12:43 PM.

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    Ta.

    This is just wording in the partnership agreement, which I think (hope) no one is actually taking seriously anyway. We've stripped most of the bumf out anyway. (Like quarterly accounts?!? I think not...)

    I think we're quite far away from any real life Explorering just now anyway, but it would be good to get this out of the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Ta.

    This is just wording in the partnership agreement, which I think (hope) no one is actually taking seriously anyway. We've stripped most of the bumf out anyway. (Like quarterly accounts?!? I think not...)

    I think we're quite far away from any real life Explorering just now anyway, but it would be good to get this out of the way.
    quartlerly accounts can be very useful as have seen it several times of units having their own accounts and being stuffed when it comes to census. You have to remember Explorer money is the responsibility of the district ultimately and any good treasurer should see accounts on a fairly regular basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcush View Post
    quartlerly accounts can be very useful as have seen it several times of units having their own accounts and being stuffed when it comes to census. You have to remember Explorer money is the responsibility of the district ultimately and any good treasurer should see accounts on a fairly regular basis.
    The problem with that is, our explorers never had our own account. For a mixture of reasons, (mostly though because we were group-based), the stuff we did went through the Scout Account. (On one or two occasions where we got funding, it needed to be paid to the district, so we did it that way.) I'm not asking our treasurer to submit quarterly accounts for Explorers. There's already oversight there.

    Not sure what it's got to do with census.

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    Our district treasurer has online access (and is a signatory) on all unit accounts, so they can look any time, but day to day money is done by the leaders.

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    If i remember right you are Scotland so rules may be different.

    Always remember that Explorers are a district provision and district has control either by DESC/DESA or District Exec. They need to decide if your unit restarts or your scouts go to another unit and the DESC/DESA (or DC if there isn't one) has to approve/sign the partnership agreement so District know what is being agreed.

    Explorer unit should have a separate account unless everything agreed in writing with Group & District exec.

    District Treasurer should see accounts (like any treasurer) every quarter, in fact i think its mandated in POR. It just means you don't get issues where district has to carry an expense contracted by an explorer unit that can't pay. (remember its district not group that is responsible)

    Also watch out for gift aid, its the district who has to claim it for you under the district charity number, not group.

    If Subs & Camp fees/activities are being paid through the Group, what happens if a camp makes a profit or loss? who supplies the gift aid data to district treasurer? How does unit pay "rent" for use of HQ.

    It can get very messy unless its all detailed in the partnership agreement, and its easier with a separate account. (i was District treasurer when explorers was set up, then explorer leader and now group treasurer & Dist Exec, so seen it from all angles)

    Although in my opinion Explorers should be able to be run as a Group entity or a District entity depending on circumstances, but with district having some control over where as you don't want every group having one with one a few YP in each
    Dave Ralphs
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    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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    Quote Originally Posted by dralphs View Post
    If i remember right you are Scotland so rules may be different.

    Always remember that Explorers are a district provision and district has control either by DESC/DESA or District Exec. They need to decide if your unit restarts or your scouts go to another unit and the DESC/DESA (or DC if there isn't one) has to approve/sign the partnership agreement so District know what is being agreed.

    Explorer unit should have a separate account unless everything agreed in writing with Group & District exec.

    District Treasurer should see accounts (like any treasurer) every quarter, in fact i think its mandated in POR. It just means you don't get issues where district has to carry an expense contracted by an explorer unit that can't pay. (remember its district not group that is responsible)

    Also watch out for gift aid, its the district who has to claim it for you under the district charity number, not group.

    If Subs & Camp fees/activities are being paid through the Group, what happens if a camp makes a profit or loss? who supplies the gift aid data to district treasurer? How does unit pay "rent" for use of HQ.

    It can get very messy unless its all detailed in the partnership agreement, and its easier with a separate account. (i was District treasurer when explorers was set up, then explorer leader and now group treasurer & Dist Exec, so seen it from all angles)

    Although in my opinion Explorers should be able to be run as a Group entity or a District entity depending on circumstances, but with district having some control over where as you don't want every group having one with one a few YP in each
    I fear we may be in danger of revisiting an oft-discussed topic.

    The problem we have here is, units run as sections in groups. As SL I don't run an account and produce quarterly accounts, so why would I do it for Explorers? If we had an account, I'm not averse to someone from district having access, in terms of carrying expenses, (if I've understood you correctly), if the money isn't there, we're not spending it. In ten years of running activities for Explorers, it never happened. (Mind you, we had the backing of the Scout group right enough.)

    It's just tricky because the reality here doesn't match POR at all. Our district is (I think) now trying to get back to a more district-based ESU. The problems now however, are the same as they were. If they go too far down that road. Provision for over 14's will end again. It took a long time to recover the last time.

    (Also, I really don't like bureaucracy anyway... Especially when it serves no identifiable purpose... )

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    For explorers the desc is, by POR (and therefore I'm gdpr terms) the equivalent of the GSL

    I doubt many would argue about the GSL having access to the group members data, so why argue about the desc having access?

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    For explorers the desc is, by POR (and therefore I'm gdpr terms) the equivalent of the GSL

    I doubt many would argue about the GSL having access to the group members data, so why argue about the desc having access?
    I asked because, due to how it works here, Explorers (effectively) are not a district provision. I thought with GDPR, for information to be shared, the person with whom it was being shared, needed to have a reason for wanting it.

    I'm not arguing, (I don't actually care to be honest), I was just asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I asked because, due to how it works here, Explorers (effectively) are not a district provision. I thought with GDPR, for information to be shared, the person with whom it was being shared, needed to have a reason for wanting it.

    I'm not arguing, (I don't actually care to be honest), I was just asking.
    Explorers are a District provision - this is immutable, there is no other scope for them. The District may delegate almost everything about them to Groups, but that does not change that basic fact.

    If a Group unilaterally sets up a 14-17.999999 provision without the District agreeing to its creation, what they have created is not an Explorer Scout Unit and neither it nor its Leaders are covered by any form of insurance TSA provides because it's not a TSA section.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Explorers are a District provision - this is immutable, there is no other scope for them. The District may delegate almost everything about them to Groups, but that does not change that basic fact.

    If a Group unilaterally sets up a 14-17.999999 provision without the District agreeing to its creation, what they have created is not an Explorer Scout Unit and neither it nor its Leaders are covered by any form of insurance TSA provides because it's not a TSA section.
    Once more.

    I'm not talking about whether or not Explorers is a district provision. I've been involved in Scouts for 30+ years. I was here when Explorers was devised and put in place. I know all these things.

    My question was around GDPR and how it might clash with POR, where POR doesn't match reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Once more.

    I'm not talking about whether or not Explorers is a district provision. I've been involved in Scouts for 30+ years. I was here when Explorers was devised and put in place. I know all these things.

    My question was around GDPR and how it might clash with POR, where POR doesn't match reality.
    The way I would square it is... The district is legally the data controller for explorers. It cannot control that data if it doesn't have access to it

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    You can run your explorer accounts through the groups bank account, if that’s the way the partnership agreement allows, but you still need to keep the “accounting” separate so that you can always show the incomings outgoings etc for the unit itself.

    Back to the original question I have gathered it is so variable by district /county that the only sensible answer will be - talk to your DESC about it! Some want the info for record, some want it to actively manage waiting lists etc, some don’t want to know.
    AESL

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    Probably are re-hashing it and will do so until the cows come home

    I quite agree that explorer provision anywhere is a mess and could be simpler but until it gets changed we have to follow POR which means that the buck stops with the District and the District Exec are the trustees.

    Under GDPR as was pointed out in the OSM data sharing meeting

    Groups - Group Exec are Data Controllers
    Explorer - District Exec are Data Controllers

    I think that sharing of names and waiting lists is probably allowed as required to allow the unit to function (but not all personal details) until they move up or leave. Its probably something that your Group & District need to decide and have in partnership agreement.

    ps

    as to quarterly accounts, its another POR requirement that is often overlooked, but for your treasurer to budget they need to know what is being spent, even more important when you have "remote" explorer units
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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