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Thread: Tonights all members online meeting 7pm

  1. #121
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    Again speaking for my little corner of the county - anecdotal I know, but nevertheless covers 8 groups not one. Every single group, prior to the "windfall" had confirmed that they had reserves sufficient to cover 6 months (or two terms) without income. Perhaps not surprising as following a couple of issues a few years back when a group nearly went underwater our DT has been pushing every treasurer hard to ensure that they have sufficient funds.

    So - that's why I'm personally a bit miffed that my taxes are paying for Scout groups who don't really need it, and I'm certain this isn't the only area like that. And when HQ talk about groups helping each other out then that just feels like a ~40M* donation to the scout movement from taxes.

    *Assuming 50% of groups get it, which is lower than locally, and looks typical, if a little low nationally looking at responses here and on FB.

  2. #122
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    This is one of those areas where admistering it would probably cost more than the saving in means testing etc it. especially when time is of teh essence. The money lost in giving cash to groups who might not need it is probably pretty small vs the total amount of money given (most business absolutely do need it and more)

    We are losing cash every month in lost hall revenue, we are losing cash in no subs/ half subs (some people have chosen full subs - about 50% of our members!)... so yes, we probably have lost 5k? maybe 6? but god knows how that could be worked out properly and adminstered in a cost effective and rapid way. I'm prety sure it couldn't

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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Again speaking for my little corner of the county - anecdotal I know, but nevertheless covers 8 groups not one. Every single group, prior to the "windfall" had confirmed that they had reserves sufficient to cover 6 months (or two terms) without income. Perhaps not surprising as following a couple of issues a few years back when a group nearly went underwater our DT has been pushing every treasurer hard to ensure that they have sufficient funds.

    So - that's why I'm personally a bit miffed that my taxes are paying for Scout groups who don't really need it, and I'm certain this isn't the only area like that. And when HQ talk about groups helping each other out then that just feels like a ~40M* donation to the scout movement from taxes.

    *Assuming 50% of groups get it, which is lower than locally, and looks typical, if a little low nationally looking at responses here and on FB.
    I did my own estimate of the possible windfall and my estimate is around 20 million; based on 50% of the Scout Groups who are registered charities getting something. Today there are 3,042 charities with 'Scout Group' in their name on the England & Wales register (this assumes Groups who are not registered were unlikely to have property to qualify for the money); plus about 600 District charities, I guess 50% will have some District property which would get them the grant; and similarly 50% of Scout Counties (I know I have not counted Scotland & Northern Ireland, but numbers are low in comparison to England & Wales).

    I do not feel in guilty in Scouting taking this money for the first (and probably last) time. I am sure many in Scouting looked on in horror at the 35 million (?) wasted on Kids Company fiasco to reach a few hundred young people; and I look at the money currently being spent like water on HS2 works in my area... 20 million is a rounding error.
    Last edited by johnL; 28-06-2020 at 08:24 PM.
    A week of camp life is worth six months of theoretical teaching in the meeting room. Baden-Powell

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  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    This is one of those areas where admistering it would probably cost more than the saving in means testing etc it. especially when time is of teh essence. The money lost in giving cash to groups who might not need it is probably pretty small vs the total amount of money given (most business absolutely do need it and more)

    We are losing cash every month in lost hall revenue, we are losing cash in no subs/ half subs (some people have chosen full subs - about 50% of our members!)... so yes, we probably have lost 5k? maybe 6? but god knows how that could be worked out properly and adminstered in a cost effective and rapid way. I'm prety sure it couldn't
    I tried to work out how much money we'd lose, or not get, or however you want to put it. But I couldn't - mostly because I still don't know what we're doing about subs. I know we didn't do our jumble sale so that's 3 to 3.5k. We're not doing hall hires so that's another (maybe) 2k. Our subs income per year is between 4k and 5k (dependant on if Beavers are running, they're not right now...) None of that includes gift aid, or ad hoc hall hires, plus any of the wee bits of fund raising we do here and there.

    I think when it all levels out, we'll be about even.

    That said, we've been running a surplus these past few years, purely coincidentally, so were in good shape.

    To be honest, I don't actually disagree with Paul o, we would have survived, but we still would have been out of pocket and would've had to work hard to get back to where we were. But, we're a charity and we have plans going forward. As already pointed out, looking at the amounts of money that get spaffed up the wall, I just can't bring myself to feel bad about getting this cash (assuming we've got it, I still haven't confirmed it). I know we'll do more good with it than Westminster will.

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  8. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnL View Post
    ......
    I do not feel in guilty in Scouting taking this money for the first (and probably last) time. I am sure many in Scouting looked on in horror at the 35 million (?) wasted on Kids Company fiasco to reach a few hundred young people; and I look at the money currently being spent like water on HS2 works in my area... 20 million is a rounding error.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this, but a couple more thoughts - the fact that the govt has wasted money in the past never justifies wasting it in future, the opposite in fact. Whether its 20 or 40M, fact is that could, for example, buy 100,000 laptops to help fill in the lamentable lack of online learning currently undertaken in the state sector - or simply help, kit out, educate, and support the education sector in providing better remote lessons. Both of those ideas seem to me a much better use of public funds than supporting Scouting.

    I am sure Scouting will survive almost untouched - and where we fail will not be financially but it will be by lack of leaders, or by our youth being unengaged in future by having fallen out of the habit or by not being interested in Scouting as it returns.

  9. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this, but a couple more thoughts - the fact that the govt has wasted money in the past never justifies wasting it in future, the opposite in fact. Whether its 20 or 40M, fact is that could, for example, buy 100,000 laptops to help fill in the lamentable lack of online learning currently undertaken in the state sector - or simply help, kit out, educate, and support the education sector in providing better remote lessons. Both of those ideas seem to me a much better use of public funds than supporting Scouting.

    I am sure Scouting will survive almost untouched - and where we fail will not be financially but it will be by lack of leaders, or by our youth being unengaged in future by having fallen out of the habit or by not being interested in Scouting as it returns.
    I'd rather see the government throwing money randomly into the charity sector and small business sector, where it will be spent efficiently, than urinating it up the wall on inefficient public sector projects - which seems to be what Boris is planning next.

    By their very nature, small businesses and charities tend to spend money carefully and efficiently - and largely within the UK economy often benefiting other small businesses.

    For example, as a small local business, we buy the services of a local book keeper, a local printing company, a local signwriter, local van hire company, local clothing company, etc. So money invested in us bounces around the local and regional economy. Those small businesses in turn employ local people and spend money in the local economy. The van hire company uses the local garage to maintain their vans.

    Many big infrastructure projects involve foreign corporations and the money invested soon leaves the UK economy. All they do is create short term jobs.

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  11. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I'd rather see the government throwing money randomly into the charity sector and small business sector, where it will be spent efficiently, than urinating it up the wall on inefficient public sector projects - which seems to be what Boris is planning next.

    By their very nature, small businesses and charities tend to spend money carefully and efficiently - and largely within the UK economy often benefiting other small businesses.

    For example, as a small local business, we buy the services of a local book keeper, a local printing company, a local signwriter, local van hire company, local clothing company, etc. So money invested in us bounces around the local and regional economy. Those small businesses in turn employ local people and spend money in the local economy. The van hire company uses the local garage to maintain their vans.

    Many big infrastructure projects involve foreign corporations and the money invested soon leaves the UK economy. All they do is create short term jobs.
    "Throwing money randomly into charity?!" Isn't that what caused the issue with Kids company in the first place? Compass is an example of why the Scouts shouldn't be left with managing the money.

  12. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this, but a couple more thoughts - the fact that the govt has wasted money in the past never justifies wasting it in future, the opposite in fact. Whether its 20 or 40M, fact is that could, for example, buy 100,000 laptops to help fill in the lamentable lack of online learning currently undertaken in the state sector - or simply help, kit out, educate, and support the education sector in providing better remote lessons. Both of those ideas seem to me a much better use of public funds than supporting Scouting.

    I am sure Scouting will survive almost untouched - and where we fail will not be financially but it will be by lack of leaders, or by our youth being unengaged in future by having fallen out of the habit or by not being interested in Scouting as it returns.
    I think the basis for this is wrong. If you consider how much money has been slashed from youth work budgets over the past few years, this is a drop in the ocean. By dint of a total fluke, they've managed to give actual cash to charities directly involved in delivering youth work, (perhaps not the full range of it, but youth work never-the-less).

    In the same way we shouldn't justify this 'waste of money' with other wastes of money. I don't actually think this has been a waste of money. Making a blanket statement like that I think ignores the context and nuance of the situation. And I suppose, it's also worth pointing out, all funding is optional. Justifying us not getting this money because schools need laptops (etc) is moot. HS2. Trident. The 'app' that wasn't. The boats that weren't. MP's expenses. Footballers agitating for school meals. 1b for schools (when Gove cut ~6B a few years ago...) And so on, and on and on.

    It's all optional.

    Did our group need the money? Yeah, we did. We always need money, because that's how it works - and it's by their (the government's) choice because they support and perpetuate the current economic system and won't fund youth services properly within it.

    Imagine if they'd given the cash to HQ and left them to dish it out, or not... Hmmm... They actually did something right as I see it.

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  14. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    "Throwing money randomly into charity?!" Isn't that what caused the issue with Kids company in the first place? Compass is an example of why the Scouts shouldn't be left with managing the money.
    But if you bung small amounts of money into lots of charities and businesses, most will use it well and it will benefit everyone.

    That is what has happened here with the 10k grants.

    Where things go wrong is where individual charities or businesses receive massive sums of money- e.g. kids company.

    If that kids company money had been sent into the youth charity sector as small grants, the majority of the charities using those grants would have used it wisely. Rather than it all going down the pan with one corrupt charity.

    It's the same with sports funding. With 10k, my archery club could offer 6 week junior beginner courses free of charge to 500 kids.... but instead funding goes on developing elite athletes rather than on the grassroots stuff.
    Last edited by campwarden; 29-06-2020 at 10:01 AM.

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