Page 1 of 86 123451151 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 1278

Thread: Written Risk Assessments to become compulsory - POR Pre-launch Check

  1. #1
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    12,880
    Thanks
    4,391
    Thanked 1,402 Times in 931 Posts

    Written Risk Assessments to become compulsory - POR Pre-launch Check

    TSA's Safety Committee have proposed that it become complusory for ALL risk assements to be documented and have launched a pre-launch check/consulation for changes to POR to bring this rule in.

    Details can be found at https://cms.scouts.org.uk/media/7128...sment-2020.pdf

    with the consulation survey found at https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/62...3efb2d425f811f (please read the proposals first before completing the survey)

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to shiftypete For This Useful Post:

    BigBaloo (01-07-2020)

  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    1,305
    Thanks
    196
    Thanked 550 Times in 341 Posts
    Many of those leaders who are trying to decide whether Scouting forms part of their post-covid life are probably, even now, writing their resignations. Meanwhile, rather than thinking dynamically about the risks, leaders will be copying and pasting without thought to meet the beaurocracy requirements.

    I understand why TSA have gone down this route, but it wont help anything in the long term beyond a bit of corporate backside covering. I'm not convinced a written risk assessment would have prevented the Great Orme tragedy, for example.

  4. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to campwarden For This Useful Post:

    Dave Davies (01-07-2020),dralphs (01-07-2020),Dr_Pepper (27-07-2020),Kastor (01-07-2020),mang21 (01-07-2020),Neil Williams (01-07-2020),pa_broon74 (01-07-2020)

  5. #3
    Scout Leader (Bosun) Nick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Thatcham, Berkshire
    Posts
    853
    Thanks
    35
    Thanked 153 Times in 87 Posts
    If they keep the system simple with clear examples then it shouldn't be too difficult and might actually be used, the HSE website has some fairly straightforward examples.

    If they go for a complicated system where numbers have to be calculated and added up as ranted about by the "Health & Safety Professional" on the Q&A session at the end of the webinar last week, then lots of people will be frightened away and may well decide it is too much trouble being a leader.

    Hopefully they will remember the KISS principle.

  6. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,922
    Thanks
    3,138
    Thanked 2,554 Times in 1,594 Posts
    The examples on the PDF appear not just to be RAs, but also operating procedures/briefing notes. It's poorly explained if these are adequate, though.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Neil Williams For This Useful Post:

    shiftypete (01-07-2020)

  8. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    382
    Thanks
    608
    Thanked 121 Times in 87 Posts
    Having looked at the proposals i can't really see too much of a problem, the biggest change seems to be they want them to be documented somewhere.
    For majority of activities in and around the hut it will be a pain as probably at present they aren't documented anywhere, probably just in the Leaders head.
    For bigger activities eg camps we should have them anyway.

    Not sure how you do one for something like DofE Expedition or a patrol camping on a passport so TSA will need to issue guidance.

    Hope they produce templates etc all in editable format and not a pdf.

    Yes it won't stop things like Great Orme in fact no RA will stop some foolishness or stupidity. You can tell your YP that fire is hot, not to poke sticks in it, to keep back etc, but there is always one that will find out the hard way.
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to dralphs For This Useful Post:

    campwarden (01-07-2020)

  10. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Middx
    Posts
    52
    Thanks
    36
    Thanked 33 Times in 19 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    If they keep the system simple with clear examples then it shouldn't be too difficult and might actually be used, the HSE website has some fairly straightforward examples.

    If they go for a complicated system where numbers have to be calculated and added up as ranted about by the "Health & Safety Professional" on the Q&A session at the end of the webinar last week, then lots of people will be frightened away and may well decide it is too much trouble being a leader.

    Hopefully they will remember the KISS principle.
    Agreed. RAs don't need to be complicated or involve formulae. We all probably do them all the time, in our heads, so the easier and quicker the methods of capturing that without onerous "paperwork", the better.

    Also needs to be recognised that *nothing* supersedes a dynamic risk assessment. One can have what seems a bullet-proof RA for an activity, but if something doesn't feel right in the moment, then being in possession of a written RA mustn't stop anyone from raising concerns or considering alternatives.

  11. #7
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    7,067
    Thanks
    1,641
    Thanked 2,555 Times in 1,464 Posts
    The feedback survey appears to be one box "give us your feedback". Not convinced anything anyone says will change what is being done.

    Other changes

    More information will be shared on here soon about supervision of free time, activity approval process and the provision of intimate care for young people and vulnerable adults who may require it.
    So we're supposed to feedback on incomplete info?

    I've got a sick feeling in my stomach that it's going to make Explorers more or less untenable. Certainly any self led or "right all, we've got half an hour, what game you playing next?". And that "supervision of free time"...that seems ominous too. Free time is a staple of camp life.

    And how do you change plans? We've all had *this isn't working, let's do something else* nights.

    I guess I'll have to go to the inevitable webinar.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ianw For This Useful Post:

    dralphs (02-07-2020),nele (08-07-2020)

  13. #8
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    3,489
    Thanks
    156
    Thanked 610 Times in 338 Posts
    This is way too much like work.

    I've never done a written RA in the 15 years I've been a Leader (other than possibley on a training course).

    I'm glad I've stopped being a Section Leader as there is no way I'd be bothered to do this. It's enough work sorting out a program and getting all the bits together for the evening without having to invent some paperwork to keep the bureaucrats happy.

    Good luck with this.


    Anyone got a (written) risk assesment for a Beaver icing a biscuit?
    Last edited by Kastor; 01-07-2020 at 02:14 PM.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Kastor For This Useful Post:

    big chris (01-07-2020),johnL (01-07-2020),pa_broon74 (01-07-2020)

  15. #9
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    7,067
    Thanks
    1,641
    Thanked 2,555 Times in 1,464 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Many of those leaders who are trying to decide whether Scouting forms part of their post-covid life are probably, even now, writing their resignations.
    For sure, it's going to be another straw that breaks a few backs. My sense would be that a lot of "old timer" leaders, and I guess I'd count myself in there now, who go "right we're playing Boxes" or something and "just know" what to do. Or me that sits down and thinks "well we're doing spinning fireballs so take some buckets and fireproof gloves" and adds those to the list of gear to take...now you want me to write "chance of burnt hands, take fireproof gloves" down? Hmmm. I guess it's ever thus, when I've been contemplating my navel, I do wonder if anyone ever departs at the right time, most surely will go on that little bit too long, be that little bit more bitter, the changes they don't like will stack up, until that one thing, that one kid, that one parent, that one rule change that makes them go "that's it, I'm done".
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

  16. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Lisburn
    Posts
    933
    Thanks
    35
    Thanked 258 Times in 169 Posts
    I will give my feedback in due course but reading this gives me concern

    “In fact, it should be as simple as adding it into our programme planning sessions and for many of our repeated weekly activities, simply tweaking template documents.”

    “Tweaking” existing documents as a way to do RAs is a guarantee that people are going to not actually do a RA but just do the documentation to tick the box.
    Also, all risks will need to be explained to the young people so they fully understand them. That’s going to be an exiting item to do for each game/activity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    For sure, it's going to be another straw that breaks a few backs. My sense would be that a lot of "old timer" leaders, and I guess I'd count myself in there now, who go "right we're playing Boxes" or something and "just know" what to do. Or me that sits down and thinks "well we're doing spinning fireballs so take some buckets and fireproof gloves" and adds those to the list of gear to take...now you want me to write "chance of burnt hands, take fireproof gloves" down? Hmmm. I guess it's ever thus, when I've been contemplating my navel, I do wonder if anyone ever departs at the right time, most surely will go on that little bit too long, be that little bit more bitter, the changes they don't like will stack up, until that one thing, that one kid, that one parent, that one rule change that makes them go "that's it, I'm done".
    It’s getting close for me. I see the sense in doing RAs, and for expeditions it’s good to talk them through with the explorers so everyone is on the same page but like most leaders a lot of the activity RA is dynamic done between leaders and salient points made to the explorers but not every point.

  17. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,129
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 239 Times in 132 Posts
    Does Any one have a risk assessment for (activity name) I can download, which probably bears little resemblance to reality, then skim read part forget and file away somewhere either hidden in a sub folder on a pc, or in a dusty filling cabinet

  18. #12
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    16,711
    Thanks
    687
    Thanked 3,579 Times in 1,938 Posts
    That is a sledgehammer to crack a nut - a written RA for everything you do is going to end up in what is essentially a prescribed programme... ah, I see what they are aiming at. Uniformity.

    But seriously, you have a premises RA - Yes pa_broon, you are going to have one. And then for every single thing you do, every game from Sleeping Lions to Full Contact Bulldog, you are going to need a written risk assessment... That's absolutely bonkers.

    I'm looking at the premises RA and some basic RA for some regular activities - but for example, we played a session with table games using ping pong balls and plastic cups - we generated about a dozen different games - they are saying that every game needs a written RA?

    This is another example of Gilwell setting a standard that many will simply not adhere to. Jeez! Half the RA written would be ignored by the kids as being restrictive.

    If this is pushed, more will leave, Scouts will become even more sanitised. Good grief, there are so many things that we do that the general public baulk at - kids using knives is just one example, Scouts building bridges and runways is another. mind you, much Scouting is now anodyne anyway, what will it matter if it gets even more bland?
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bushfella For This Useful Post:

    Dr_Pepper (27-07-2020),Sparks (02-07-2020)

  20. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Lisburn
    Posts
    933
    Thanks
    35
    Thanked 258 Times in 169 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    This is way too much like work.

    Anyone got a (written) risk assesment for a Beaver icing a biscuit?
    You will after this goes live.

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Big George For This Useful Post:

    dralphs (02-07-2020),pa_broon74 (01-07-2020)

  22. #14
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    7,067
    Thanks
    1,641
    Thanked 2,555 Times in 1,464 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    If this is pushed, more will leave, Scouts will become even more sanitised. Good grief, there are so many things that we do that the general public baulk at - kids using knives is just one example, Scouts building bridges and runways is another. mind you, much Scouting is now anodyne anyway, what will it matter if it gets even more bland?
    "Not as good as it used to be" - the clarion call of the ex-leader.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to ianw For This Useful Post:

    campwarden (01-07-2020)

  24. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,559
    Thanks
    173
    Thanked 828 Times in 475 Posts
    So I was thinking that maybe this summer might be a good time to pack in - started to help my kids get through Scouting, both moved on from Cubs some time back (youngest is over 13 so won't be that long in Scouts) and other pressures were growing on family time. Plus its always been a scramble to get from work, drive back 15 miles in rush hour traffic, get changed and then cross town in rush hour traffic to get to the hut. So end of a year big chunk moving on so a lot of fresh faces in September and figured it might be time to go.

    Then Covid hits, get landed with working solidly from home for 3 months and all of a sudden boss isn't so anti working from home, and didn't bat an eyelid when I said after this is all over there is no chance I'm going back to 5 days a week commuting when we've proved we can work remotely. Figured maybe I could have a day at home on Cubs day and maybe it could work a bit longer. Maybe not pack it in then.

    And then in the last week we've had the pre-opening risk assessments etc - which in our case won't be relevant until September by which time the situation will have changed 4 times, and the enthusiasm took a step back down again.

    Finally we hit this. Don't get me wrong I get risk assessment - I've started getting Cubs to do a mini risk assessment (hands up who can think of any dangers we might want to be wary of before we start this game outside - what can we do to avoid them or reduce them - sort of thing). But this is just adding a universal layer of paperwork to the whole thing and robbing it of the spontaneity of getting there at the end of a wet day, realising the kids have been shut in a breaks at school, the sun has just come out so why not ditch the planned programme and go and play a wide game in the field down the road etc.

    Its the obvious direction of travel post Great Orme. I think I'm just getting old. Still lets see what actually comes out by September.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

Similar Threads

  1. New NAN form with requirement for written risk assessment
    By London Scouter in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 128
    Last Post: 10-07-2020, 06:06 PM
  2. Risk Assessments
    By Walsallwizard in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 27-10-2013, 08:04 AM
  3. Risk assessments
    By SimonM in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 17-08-2011, 09:14 PM
  4. Written risk assessment?
    By ianw in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 16-05-2011, 11:21 AM
  5. Risk Assessments
    By johnmcmahon in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 24-07-2009, 06:12 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •