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Thread: Anyone want a job

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    If new volunteers are allowed do lead before they've done any training, then the training is already holed beneath the waterline.
    If new volunteers are allowed to lead before training then it's not the training which is holed, it's the group which is expecting them to lead. New people (in any organisation) should only be asked to do that which they are trained for (which may include in a previous employment). That means that new volunteers are in the same position as parent helpers (whatever they're called these days) - very useful, maybe already having real skills that should be welcomed (like some parent helpers), but helping not leading.
    John Russell
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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    If new volunteers are allowed to lead before training then it's not the training which is holed, it's the group which is expecting them to lead. New people (in any organisation) should only be asked to do that which they are trained for (which may include in a previous employment). That means that new volunteers are in the same position as parent helpers (whatever they're called these days) - very useful, maybe already having real skills that should be welcomed (like some parent helpers), but helping not leading.
    That's TSA's own rules. Having such a no-nonsense approach to safety - and this being within the rules is a bit of double standard surely?

    HQ are either responsible for policy or they're not. Groups definitely aren't, so it can't be on us.

    (My point was more an aspirational one. If the rules allow a person to lead without first doing the most basic training - what does that say about the training? If the organisation itself doesn't insist you do it before starting, new leaders probably aren't going to treat it with any urgency either.)

    Personally, I'd mandate a minimum period of on-the-job training, much like you describe - helping at the section you will be in or at another group.

    (It is tempting to assume someone would be available to come down and spend time with the new leader/s at the section they'd be leading. This I think is the ideal situation. But, That means other leaders taking more time out to do it, or yet more people having to be recruited by district (say) who might not actually have any experience anyway.)

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
    If new volunteers are allowed to lead before training then it's not the training which is holed, it's the group which is expecting them to lead. New people (in any organisation) should only be asked to do that which they are trained for (which may include in a previous employment). That means that new volunteers are in the same position as parent helpers (whatever they're called these days) - very useful, maybe already having real skills that should be welcomed (like some parent helpers), but helping not leading.
    Day One as an SL. The ADC helped me out, Day Two another leader came and watched. Day Three a third ( my nemesis), told me that what I was doing was not Scouting... I was left on my own.

    I did my training ASAP and had my Wood Badge with the year. I had since done GSL/DC training, CSL training, plus assorted other training for activities.

    Since then I never left any new Leader running solo till they had settled down.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  5. #49
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    It's actually quite interesting to think about, from a sociological point of view how leadership works in Scouts.

    You get the kids your leadership technique attracts. So if you're laid back in terms of discipline, you're probably going to get kids who are a bit wild. If you're super-strict, then you'll get kids that like structure, uniform and so on and so forth.

    The next level of that is - the difference between a group recruiting leaders and district recruiting leaders. Our scouting paradigm I think it's fair to say, is quite different from our DC's. Neither is better or worse - they're just different. If we could choose our leaders (and we can't for reasons already well outlined), the kind of person the DC would recruit, probably wouldn't be the kind of person we'd recruit.

    So for example, if a DC recruited the cub leader team, but the group recruited the scout leader team. You could have a serious mismatch brewing. Kids moving up from cubs to scouts going forward, wouldn't necessarily stay.

    We went through a similar phase, (nothing to do with any DC, I don't think there was a DC at the time), where the cub section was quite - how should I say - a bit cautious? Soft? Nursery-orientated? Many of the young folk coming up had been exceedingly sheltered. They were thrown into Scouts expecting more of the same, but it was a bit of a zoo. It was just too much for them. A scout would curse and they'd immediately tell their parents - usually at pick up. Or they'd describe an activity that we thought was tame, in such vividly violent terms their parents would rush in to complain - we'd be a wee bit non-plussed because it would be a standard activity.

    It's not straightforward and requires a bit of finessing if it's going on.

    (It's probably one of our biggest advantages, but also makes running Scouts on a broader level quite difficult.)

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That's TSA's own rules. Having such a no-nonsense approach to safety - and this being within the rules is a bit of double standard surely?

    HQ are either responsible for policy or they're not. Groups definitely aren't, so it can't be on us.

    (My point was more an aspirational one. If the rules allow a person to lead without first doing the most basic training - what does that say about the training? If the organisation itself doesn't insist you do it before starting, new leaders probably aren't going to treat it with any urgency either.)

    Personally, I'd mandate a minimum period of on-the-job training, much like you describe - helping at the section you will be in or at another group.

    (It is tempting to assume someone would be available to come down and spend time with the new leader/s at the section they'd be leading. This I think is the ideal situation. But, That means other leaders taking more time out to do it, or yet more people having to be recruited by district (say) who might not actually have any experience anyway.)
    The rules are clear that there has to be somebody at each meeting with a FULL appointment (POR chapter 3). FULL means somebody who's completed getting started training at least, which is pretty basic, but does at least satisfy your point that the person who's leading should first have done the most basic training. But, yes, there should then be a period of supported training as necessary - um, much as agreed in the personal learning plan which is part of the getting started process. So the rules and policy seem to be there. I'm not sure this is a rules issue, it's an issue with people or the lack thereof.
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
    Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

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    pa_broon74 (03-09-2020),SteveF (04-09-2020)

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