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Thread: Mandatory Ongoing Training

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    Mandatory Ongoing Training

    It looks like HQ are now being proactive with ongoing learning at last.

    I wonder how it will all work though. The message says that when completed I can either send the electronic certificate to HQ to be added to Compass or the LTM to do likewise. So that is a slight positive change.

    It goes on to say that if I donít complete it (no time frame that I can see) then my line manager may restrict my activity. Here is the rub though. As an Exec Member I have done all the training previously a few times but realise that it is to do again, however, my line manager the Chairman has been in post two or three years and has yet to complete anything other than Module 1.

    If I am a youth facing role (I am not generally) I may be stopped from that.

    The thing is I am undecided. We have not met since March other than a few emails and after over 40 years I am at the point where I have not missed Scouting over the year, added to the changes and demands being made by HQ.

    Perhaps these emails are just at the wrong time.

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    I was commenting earlier today to our DC, HQ's judgement on timing leaves much to be desired in all of this. They've massively misread and misjudged feeling and compounded it with line management pressures. Line managers hate it as much as the people they're supposed to be 'managing'.

    It is all incredibly ill-thought through.

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    This is not unusual. These emails have been going out for months now even before the lock down/shutdown. I would agree that continuing them through the lock down period is insensitive. Having said that, it was suggested locally that as people weren't meeting it would be a good time to carry out reviews!! I was slapped on the wrist when I suggested that leaders probably had more pressing issues to deal with at the time with scouting being low on their list of priorities.

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    Had they not hit us with the WRA stuff (and the bogus consultation and subsequent PR job on it), I don't think think volunteers would have minded so much about getting training up to date.

    It's all just really unfortunate. I'm more busy now than I was before lockdown. I get the impression that there is a catastrophic lack of understanding about how some groups operate, about the double and triple jobbing that goes on. The notion that if you're a section leader who's not doing f2f scouting, that you'd be sitting twiddling your thumbs, or that somehow the shortage of adult volunteers (who will actually take some responsibility) would somehow be paused as an issue.

    It's just unfortunate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boballan View Post
    This is not unusual. These emails have been going out for months now even before the lock down/shutdown. I would agree that continuing them through the lock down period is insensitive. Having said that, it was suggested locally that as people weren't meeting it would be a good time to carry out reviews!! I was slapped on the wrist when I suggested that leaders probably had more pressing issues to deal with at the time with scouting being low on their list of priorities.
    I cannot say that these are unusual. Just that I have never seen one and never heard talk of it either locally or on here or in emails from HQ saying they were going to do it.

    In my case I should have got one some time ago as it should have been done some time ago.

    A review would be good - it may make my decision easier as I donít really want to resign by email.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Had they not hit us with the WRA stuff (and the bogus consultation and subsequent PR job on it), I don't think think volunteers would have minded so much about getting training up to date.

    It's all just really unfortunate. I'm more busy now than I was before lockdown. I get the impression that there is a catastrophic lack of understanding about how some groups operate, about the double and triple jobbing that goes on. The notion that if you're a section leader who's not doing f2f scouting, that you'd be sitting twiddling your thumbs, or that somehow the shortage of adult volunteers (who will actually take some responsibility) would somehow be paused as an issue.

    It's just unfortunate.
    I agree bad timing. I canít say I have been busy Scouting but just realised that I have more time and less hassle. I donít need Scouting. At one time I would have never said that and was Scouting a few nights a week 10 years ago.

    They always say that when you are no longer enjoying it you should give up or look for change. Well I think I am at that point.

    I just want to make sure and whilst this may seem petty, I would love to receive (even through the post) my 40 year service certificate that HQ issued nearly two years ago.

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    Senior Member Airobat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post

    They always say that when you are no longer enjoying it you should give up or look for change. Well I think I am at that point.

    I just want to make sure and whilst this may seem petty, I would love to receive (even through the post) my 40 year service certificate that HQ issued nearly two years ago.
    I've reached the lack of enjoyment 3 times. The first time I had a 10 year break (although that was also caused by work relocating me 3 times during that period) and the other 2 were caused by personality clashes so I changed role/group.
    A token of appreciation (certificate/award) is worth far more than the pennies they cost. It's a shame that some line managers treat them as a bit of a nuisance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post

    The thing is I am undecided. We have not met since March other than a few emails and after over 40 years I am at the point where I have not missed Scouting over the year, added to the changes and demands being made by HQ.
    I am sure you have already but when I enquired about 15 year certificate (due to January 2016) it transpired that HQ had never generated it, I think due to me changing roles and primary location between hitting 15 years and the certificate being generate (it was generated on Compass three months after hitting 15 years). Finally got it presented in June 2018 when I chased it and the CC found it had never been issued. 20 years is due in February so not expecting that one until at least 2022 based on current situation/ previous practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    I just want to make sure and whilst this may seem petty, I would love to receive (even through the post) my 40 year service certificate that HQ issued nearly two years ago.
    You can contact HQ and ask them to reissue lost certificates. I did that earlier in the year for two that hadn't been presented from 2016!
    Whilst a lot of that team had been furloughed, I believe some of them are back and processing awards again.
    Granted, it will still go to your line manager who might just sit on it again.

    Neil

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    I think the biggest compliment HQ could pay in acknowledging long service, is listening to the expertise and experience that long service brings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I think the biggest compliment HQ could pay in acknowledging long service, is listening to the expertise and experience that long service brings.
    Agreed
    Dave Ralphs
    Yarnton Scout Group (Treasurer)
    DofE Advisor & District Exec Member - Oxford Spires District
    http://yarntonscouts.org.uk/

    I work for O2, any posts are my own personal views & do not represent O2

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    Senior Member Airobat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I think the biggest compliment HQ could pay in acknowledging long service, is listening to the expertise and experience that long service brings.
    But we're a youth led organisation! #YouthSomethingOrOther

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I think the biggest compliment HQ could pay in acknowledging long service, is listening to the expertise and experience that long service brings.

    That is a double-edged sword.

    I can recall the old boys, when I was a whippersnapper, harping on about traditional scouting, and how you could run scouting on a shoestring - no need for modern kit - taking kids hiking in wellies and woollen jumpers and all the associated "bobble-hat technology they were stuck in - fibreglass kayaks, and such. Anything that was not old school, Patrol tents and campfire cooking was not Scouting. That was what the expertise and experience long service brought.

    I argued that when the kids on the street were wearing Nike trainers ( and such) and the latest team tops renewed every season ( at much more than the cost of a Scout uniform) we needed to play a little bit of catch up. If kids could experience the best out of Scouts, then we had to offer them better in Scouts.

    We could still cook on campfires and use patrol tents, but there was now much more that we needed to offer.

    I am, I guess, now of long service and have some expertise and experience, but it is absolutely clear that my offer to TSA was not what they wanted.

    I think that part of the problem we will have upon reconvening is that many of our young people will have done exactly what we would have wanted them to do, and found their own ways and done their own thing, and they may not feel the need to return to our constrained programmes. How do we top "freedom" - and it is clear to me that many young people have found freedom through Lockdown as they were left to their own devices, chucked out of the house, met with people outdoors, possibly even , shock horror, went around to each others houses... We will have to offer something better, something different - and long service and experience may not always be able to deliver that goal.
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airobat View Post
    But we're a youth led organisation! #YouthSomethingOrOther
    Indeed.

    But who is it that normally faces that youth. It's us... Ummm, but not right now... If you see what I mean...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    That is a double-edged sword.

    I can recall the old boys, when I was a whippersnapper, harping on about traditional scouting, and how you could run scouting on a shoestring - no need for modern kit - taking kids hiking in wellies and woollen jumpers and all the associated "bobble-hat technology they were stuck in - fibreglass kayaks, and such. Anything that was not old school, Patrol tents and campfire cooking was not Scouting. That was what the expertise and experience long service brought.

    I argued that when the kids on the street were wearing Nike trainers ( and such) and the latest team tops renewed every season ( at much more than the cost of a Scout uniform) we needed to play a little bit of catch up. If kids could experience the best out of Scouts, then we had to offer them better in Scouts.

    We could still cook on campfires and use patrol tents, but there was now much more that we needed to offer.

    I am, I guess, now of long service and have some expertise and experience, but it is absolutely clear that my offer to TSA was not what they wanted.

    I think that part of the problem we will have upon reconvening is that many of our young people will have done exactly what we would have wanted them to do, and found their own ways and done their own thing, and they may not feel the need to return to our constrained programmes. How do we top "freedom" - and it is clear to me that many young people have found freedom through Lockdown as they were left to their own devices, chucked out of the house, met with people outdoors, possibly even , shock horror, went around to each others houses... We will have to offer something better, something different - and long service and experience may not always be able to deliver that goal.
    I think it's fairly easy to cherry pick examples of leaders who are stuck in the past. Indeed, it is a frustrating bug bear of mine when leaders (usually new and painfully on-message - cult-like I might say) are determined to brand any long term leader as out of touch/fashion and a danger to children because they 'knew the seventies or eighties' or some other pishy excuse.

    I also think you do yourself a disservice. You are exactly the kind of leader who should be listened to. The fact you left is because 'line management' wasn't listening.

    As you say, of course it's a balance. But this new model scouting is far too quick to assume longer term leaders don't appreciate modern ideas around things like mental health, or equality & diversity, or safeguarding. And I suppose the big one is, personal responsibility. I am no libertarian, but the idea that you can outsource all responsibility to bureaucracy, then use that bureaucracy as a safety blanket for a short term, fast turnover leader model - is completely batshit and a recipe for disaster. Ditto for knee jerk, half-arsed reactions to those disasters by out of touch amateurs.

    (I have no idea if the people who formulated the more recent policy who's name shall not be mentioned are in fact amateurs. If they are long term leaders, then it does somewhat put a hole in my argument. But hey, sometimes there's no explaining some decisions... We're only human...)

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    I have no objection with having some mandatory training with refreshers where justified. I would prefer that refresher was different to the first time version to concentrate on changes and peoples experiences of putting the policies into practice.

    I don't think it is unreasonable to expect people to do it but it would be nice if it was sold rather than enforced. "Can we remind you that it is coming up to three years since you last completed the safety training module? There have been some changes to the safety policy and associated best practice based on experience of leaders like you and we would like to share those lessons learnt with you. We all believe that the safety of the young people is very important, so please can you find about 40 minutes to do the online module <link> and send the certificate to your GSL, DC or other line manager. Thank you."
    John Alexander,
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Indeed.


    I think it's fairly easy to cherry pick examples of leaders who are stuck in the past. Indeed, it is a frustrating bug bear of mine when leaders (usually new and painfully on-message - cult-like I might say) are determined to brand any long term leader as out of touch/fashion and a danger to children because they 'knew the seventies or eighties' or some other pishy excuse.
    Ooh, now I'm thinking of the people I walked away from because of their outdated attitudes. Many still in Scouts - The racists, the homophobes, the misogynists, not many, but often in roles of influence. They were "out of their time". I say that, in that their comments would have been the norm in the 1960s or 70s. hey just kept schtum in pulic, but when they thought that they were amongst friends - how I hate that term - they let it slip.


    I also think you do yourself a disservice. You are exactly the kind of leader who should be listened to. The fact you left is because 'line management' wasn't listening.
    You are too kind. I'm not so sure that I ever fitted really, I just did what I thought was right and was vindicated by the support I got. (though I didn't always appreciate that was the case).

    As you say, of course it's a balance. But this new model scouting is far too quick to assume longer term leaders don't appreciate modern ideas around things like mental health, or equality & diversity, or safeguarding. And I suppose the big one is, personal responsibility. I am no libertarian, but the idea that you can outsource all responsibility to bureaucracy, then use that bureaucracy as a safety blanket for a short term, fast turnover leader model - is completely batshit and a recipe for disaster. Ditto for knee jerk, half-arsed reactions to those disasters by out of touch amateurs.

    (I have no idea if the people who formulated the more recent policy who's name shall not be mentioned are in fact amateurs. If they are long term leaders, then it does somewhat put a hole in my argument. But hey, sometimes there's no explaining some decisions... We're only human...)
    Hmmm, I think that in many ways we pay lip service to modern ideas, partly because we don't understand them, and partly because they often make running a group of teenagers much more challenging. Better, perhaps to treat everyone the same and , by default, have them man up... ( not my policy, you understand, just an observation).

    The problem is that we are all, mostly, amateurs, most just helping out with Scout club...

    Out of this, and presuming normal service... I think a Leadership team needs a range of approaches - we have these by pure chance. I really don't think that you can train people out of their pre-conceived ideas in a few modules, or influence long held prejudices over a weekend. You cannot bureaucratise your way around peoples' inherent attitudes and behaviours. It takes ****** evolution and a new build team. Few Groups can afford that. It is how we managed to do what we did. People didn't like the new ideas so they quit. They were replaced with people who "liked" the new approach. Equally, when we quit, it was, in effect, a ****** revolution, and the vacuum was filled by those of a like mind who follow a different path. I'm not close enough to see how effective they are, but they certainly have funds coming in from somewhere - if not the membership...
    Ewan Scott

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