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Thread: Por changes

  1. #31
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    I actually think this has been done on purpose. We have hills in Kent that walking down you would probably describe as steep. certainly chalky and slippery. But you would never think of them as high risk. But now if someone slides down it. They can just point at the rule and say that was too steep you shouldn't have been there, and you then hung out to dry.....

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    What's going on is not engagement though. Engagement involves two-way communication, it requires stakeholders to listen constructively and incorporate what's being said - noticeably - in plans. What they've done is ask for comments then ignore them - which is worse than just not listening, it takes it in to the realms of the disingenuous.

    Sending out a flurry of emails, or telling people to get over things in Facebook messages is not engagement.

    TL/DR - being told stuff is not engagement.

    I think you are correct in saying that Gilwell is not good at engagement

    Following a discussion at a training meeting I asked exactly what I should be including on spinal injuries in First Response. I got back a statement of about 50% of the First Aid Manual. I replied that I was aware of what the manual said and quoted the other 50%. What I wanted was what should I be teaching. I got no reply.

    On other occasions I have had either a "politicians answer" to a question - that simply avoids the actual question - or no reply.

  4. #33
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    I think what Rover said is key here.

    If you get in to trouble for doing/not doing something - the chances are it won't be about negligence of actions or circumstances, it'll be about being negligent about POR. You can be the most reasonable leader, taking all the precautions you reasonably can, but if it doesn't meet POR's blurry standard - you'll be hung out to dry.

    WRA's are a case in point. Include it and it happens - you're negligent, don't include it and it happens - you're still negligent. I haven't read the POR changes (I read the last lot, life was already too short.) But it seems that in trying to cover every eventuality, they're just tying themselves in knots, but it'll be leaders who get hung out to dry.

    Haha. See what I did there?


  5. #34
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    Reflected on the wording this morning thinking that it would rule out two of our local NT parkland sites because there are some steep bits. Yes there are routes around, but then arguably so were there at Great Orme. So I’d better commit a heck of a lot of my family time and money this coming year for a moorland leader qualification just in case.

    Existing terrain definitions are done on purpose to be easily defined from a map in advance. You could encounter localised steep points on any site especially if you veer off route. You would have no way of knowing short of ensuring you visit every inch of every site first, and then probably ensure that all YP always stick to the main paths. So then what? Would you, on encountering something steep like, I don’t know, even an adventure playground, would you then need to turn back?

    I get the logic of improving the definitions. Plenty of high sites are very safe - eg Mam Tor is T1 but really fine. Places in the Brecons are T0 but currently have steep gorges and difficult access. But they MUST be careful with changes, and make use of feedback to sense check and test it. Otherwise we end up with changes for the next 2-3 years to slowly refine it. A bit like the continual changes to the yellow card.
    AESL

  6. #35
    Senior Member BenOfThe12th's Avatar
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    TSA shifts even closer to being fully risk averse...
    Just waiting for the new uniform to feature bubble wrap and cotton wool.
    Well it's been fun...

  7. #36
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    We all know what the answer is, but they don't seem to want to do it. I imagine because decent training won't indemnify them if an accident occurs - all this hyperbole will though.

  8. #37
    Escouts Team MikeJ's Avatar
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    So it's changed from this "contains no element of mountainous steep ground" to this "has no steep slopes or rocky terrain, where a
    slip may result in a fall".

    Is that much change really?
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  9. #38
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    So it's changed from this "contains no element of mountainous steep ground" to this "has no steep slopes or rocky terrain, where a
    slip may result in a fall".

    Is that much change really?

    Has anyone told them that a slip will almost always cause a fall regardless of the severity of the incline, or lack of incline. Just whatever you do, do not go out without ropes and tackle.

    Reminds me of this... Steep Hill Lincoln21082971_1097656187002020_472584694545599289_o.jpg
    Ewan Scott

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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    So it's changed from this "contains no element of mountainous steep ground" to this "has no steep slopes or rocky terrain, where a
    slip may result in a fall".

    Is that much change really?
    I think it is quite a change. i am thinking of Ilkley Moor in Yorkshire. Currently in terrain zero. I would not describe it as having "mountainous steep ground" but there are some fairly steep slopes on it plus some rock.

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  12. #40
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    My immediate thoughts are of the classic DofE and Scout expedition route in the Peak District down Lathkill Dale, all fine except the campsite is up the site of the valley at Haddon Grove. How ironic that risk adverse Schools will be allowed to carry on using this route, but Scouts won't. I think of the years I've sat on an outcrop with Scouts in the evening watching the sun set and being asked questions like is their a God? Not anymore.

  13. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    I think it is quite a change. i am thinking of Ilkley Moor in Yorkshire. Currently in terrain zero. I would not describe it as having "mountainous steep ground" but there are some fairly steep slopes on it plus some rock.
    If you slipped would there be the risk of a fall from height causing death or serious injury, though? I think that's what they mean, not just if there's a slope you could slide down with no injury.

  14. #42
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    I suppose climbing on natural rock will also be out as the last few metres to the foot of most crags will come under this new "proposed" rule. FFS! No wonder TSA have opened a section pre Beavers, by the time they have finished sanitising Scouting there will be no teenagers interested in taking part.

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  16. #43
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    If you slipped would there be the risk of a fall from height causing death or serious injury, though? I think that's what they mean, not just if there's a slope you could slide down with no injury.
    Yes there are cliffs people use for climbing at one of the main access points to Ilkley Moor near the Cow and Calf rocks. That area is very popular with the public as the Cow and Calf rocks are a tourist attraction. I have taken Explorers there many times, not once have I had a concern that anyone would actually slip and fall off the cliffs and there are perfectly safe paths up and down that don't involve any scrambling or use of hands.

    There is also a walk locally along a hill called Otley Chevin that at points is near cliffs. I have walked along there all my life since I was a toddler. if I can't take Scouts there without a hillwalking permit when a 2 year old can walk there safely (I have walked along there with my 2 year old nephew) then we may as well pack up and go home and give up on Scouts being an outdoor organisation.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 22-11-2020 at 10:58 AM.

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  18. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    If you slipped would there be the risk of a fall from height causing death or serious injury, though? I think that's what they mean, not just if there's a slope you could slide down with no injury.
    Unfortunately should it come to court the lawyers will be going with what is written and not what you think the TSA meant.

  19. #45
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    Could've been written for the Great Orme then, and any where like it.

    Two things occur, the blanket removal of any judgement leaders might have or be able to deploy, and the general removal of any sort of risk.

    Now we can't take members up any steps.

    It seems to me, where TSA is going wrong with this (and what will be alienating a lot of experienced leaders) is the complete disregard it has for those experienced leaders. It's one dimensional thinking, insofar as, they really haven't considered any nuance or difference in skills held by volunteers.

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