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Thread: Por changes

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    Por changes

    Is it just me or do some of the new por changes need an explanation themselves? Maybe it's just me!!

    Oh an how do we define a steep slope?

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    Paul Austin
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    G0AXQ, intrests in Scouting, Cycling, Hiking, anything on the water. seeing the young people achive.

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    Quite a few campsites have "steep slopes" as do public places such as theme parks.

    Is there a link to these changes??

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    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    This is the link to the details of the proposed changes https://cms.scouts.org.uk/media/1198...s-nov-2020.pdf

    and this is the link to give feedback once you have read the proposals https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/03...fb29a59cf7e239

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Is it just me or do some of the new por changes need an explanation themselves? Maybe it's just me!!

    Oh an how do we define a steep slope?

    Sent from my K10000 Pro using Tapatalk
    Wow, having read it, that wording is going to open a can of worms. There’s a balance to be had. On one hand, keeping rules plain English, not over-complicating things, and relying on “basic common sense” of leaders to interpret. On the other hand, we have increasing sense of litigation culture in general, and I see a legalistic tone to TSA of late regarding leader roles and responsibilities.

    There’s also clear shortcomings in training coverage and quality, so I don’t believe it is possible to allow loose wording. But then, that’s my style and background I suppose - borne out by taking the time to read the bloomin changes and then discuss it here! Most would just carry on in ignorant bliss I’m sure!
    AESL

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    This is the link to the details of the proposed changes https://cms.scouts.org.uk/media/1198...s-nov-2020.pdf

    and this is the link to give feedback once you have read the proposals https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/03...fb29a59cf7e239
    Just had a quick look and this as written could be an issue:
    has no steep slopes or rocky terrain,where a slip may result in a fall(routes or areas where the average person would need to regularly use their hands at least for balance if not for actual progress. This does not stop people from using their hands as an aid to confidence.
    Whats the definition of rocky terrain? a gravel/rocky path??
    how steep is a steep slope? there are plenty of places with steep slopes.
    use hands for balance? like a handrail?

    We've done theme park camps, and at least by that the theme park (Alton Towers) falls into that catergory
    Slope/steep slopes in the water-park with handrails/ropes - theres a slope with a handrail in the entrance area to the waterpark, as well as a water theme park based assault course inside withe plenty of steep slopes where you have to use ropes.
    Then theres the main theme park itself - Alton Towers has plenty of steep slopes, in particular in the gardens although while the Scouts avoid the gardens in general they do use it is a cut through to get to the rides, or if/when they get lost trying to find Nemesis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Is it just me or do some of the new por changes need an explanation themselves? Maybe it's just me!!

    Oh an how do we define a steep slope?

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    I found this definition “ Steep slopes are legally defined as hillsides having a 15 foot, or greater, vertical rise over 100 feet of horizontal run, or 15% slope ”

    However I think it may be an American definition.

    The ML site has “ The Mountain Leader syllabus refers to steep ground as 'generally broken, often vegetated with a fair proportion of visible rock, some loose, where the consequences of a slip or fall might be serious.' Managing groups on this terrain is challenging and serious and should not be undertaken lightly.”

    That said I know of serious injuries on ground that was near enough flat, just depends on how people fall.

    I sometimes think people in HQ now have too much time on their hands and you know what they say about idle hands.
    Last edited by Big George; 18-11-2020 at 07:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    This is the link to the details of the proposed changes https://cms.scouts.org.uk/media/1198...s-nov-2020.pdf

    and this is the link to give feedback once you have read the proposals https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/03...fb29a59cf7e239
    The thing is when I read the thing it says they are proposals and open to comments by a date in December to be in POR in January.

    Oh and they have been approved by two committees. So to me they are more than proposals but to appear open they are inviting comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    The thing is when I read the thing it says they are proposals and open to comments by a date in December to be in POR in January.

    Oh and they have been approved by two committees. So to me they are more than proposals but to appear open they are inviting comments.
    TSA don't do consultations, they only pretend to do them. The changes will be in POR as they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    TSA don't do consultations, they only pretend to do them. The changes will be in POR as they are.
    They used to, for example today I found the proposals for changes to the terrain definitions from 2016 which were consulted on and evidently the feedback wasn;t good as they never implemented the proposals (https://archive.scouts.org.uk/media/...,3D78R8,XHZC,1). Seems in the last few years they have moved to the position where consultations are just a box ticking excercise and there is no intention to take any notice of the feedback from the consulations as usually no time has been left for them to possibly look at and react to the feedback

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    They used to, for example today I found the proposals for changes to the terrain definitions from 2016 which were consulted on and evidently the feedback wasn;t good as they never implemented the proposals (https://archive.scouts.org.uk/media/...,3D78R8,XHZC,1). Seems in the last few years they have moved to the position where consultations are just a box ticking excercise and there is no intention to take any notice of the feedback from the consulations as usually no time has been left for them to possibly look at and react to the feedback
    I'm not sure what's more disturbing; that they do it, or that they think we don't realise how obvious it is that they're not interested in effective consultation.

    It's as if they don't think very much of us... Oh wait. They don't.

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    Part of it is that they are making changes to POR so regularly now that they don't have the time to consult properly even if they did want to. I reckon this is about the 3rd or 4th update this year alone when they used to be annual updates and for good reason as that allows proper consideration of what changes they want to make, drafting, consulation and then consideration of the consulatation and changes based on that.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    If anyone is in Rutland this appears to ban Shacklewell Hollow as a campsite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Is it just me or do some of the new por changes need an explanation themselves? Maybe it's just me!!

    Oh an how do we define a steep slope?

    Sent from my K10000 Pro using Tapatalk


    If we step out of the door around here we have steep slopes... It was actually something that struck me when I moved down to West Yorkshire. The hills may be lower, but the paths and roads are steeper.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    The POR changes are a "Pre-launch check" not a consultation, apparently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimboko View Post
    The POR changes are a "Pre-launch check" not a consultation, apparently.

    In which case there is no need to appear open to comments. Instead why not say that this is what we are changing in January here it is so that you are forewarned.

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