2021 Census predictions

**wealdbrook** · 04-02-2021, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by marcush

I can see one of the main reasons for decline being lack of leaders, and I think covid-19 is accelerating this issue, which looking back through the censuses adults weren't necessarily looked at anywhere near as much in terms of trends, and I think with flexible volunteering the decline in the amount of volunteering time can't be seen.

But the problem is that the numbers on the census or even in Compass do not reflect the real resource available. We have a lot of OHs - parents who we need to have a DBS for camps, etc. Many of their children have left and it is a job to be done to send them all nice emails, then cancel their OH and hope they don't get too upset by the automated email.

One may have a good number of leaders on the books but it does not always reflect how much time they can devote to the group. Also I am sure that even if some leaders say that they won't be coming back they will remain on compass for a while (in the hope they will come back) at least until their DBS expires and the system abruptly dumps them.

**Paul o** · 04-02-2021, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by wealdbrook

But the problem is that the numbers on the census or even in Compass do not reflect the real resource available. We have a lot of OHs - parents who we need to have a DBS for camps, etc. Many of their children have left and it is a job to be done to send them all nice emails, then cancel their OH and hope they don't get too upset by the automated email.

One may have a good number of leaders on the books but it does not always reflect how much time they can devote to the group. Also I am sure that even if some leaders say that they won't be coming back they will remain on compass for a while (in the hope they will come back) at least until their DBS expires and the system abruptly dumps them.

Yes - Compass is no use for taking the temperature of Scouting. (or for anything else). We have a Compass list of assistants and helpers as long as your arm.. some of them names I don't even recognise. If I were to tick the ones that have been active in a meeting in the last 18 months then the list could be shortened to 10% of its current length. (correction - just checked and GSL has culled the deadwood from Compass!)

For my 15 years in Scouting I have been banging on about Leaders being the key to the viability of Scouting. TSA will gear their PR about growing YP numbers and celebrate growth here and there, but it is missing the point. Our Group website is all about recruitment of Leaders - and we don't have a page about YP wanting to join.... it is a pity the TSA doesn't see wood for the trees in their perennially flawed data.

PS - what was interesting in that 7000+ members Crisis Zoom that ran last year, was the cost of vetting and checking of adults in TSA. Over and above DBS there was a monumental financial cost of checking and vetting... almost to the point that if you have to sign up a parent for a single day's camp then the resultant cost to TSA of them failing a DBS is not worth risking... and it would be cheaper to employ a camp assistant at £15ph. Bottom line? we only need assistants that are in for the long term.

**Bushfella** · 05-02-2021, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Paul o

PS - what was interesting in that 7000+ members Crisis Zoom that ran last year, was the cost of vetting and checking of adults in TSA. Over and above DBS there was a monumental financial cost of checking and vetting... almost to the point that if you have to sign up a parent for a single day's camp then the resultant cost to TSA of them failing a DBS is not worth risking... and it would be cheaper to employ a camp assistant at £15ph. Bottom line? we only need assistants that are in for the long term.

Obviously not involved in that discussion - but...

Over and above there was a monumental financial cost of checking and vetting? How?

Our DBS checks via the Council are £20 - I actually have a fee-free application process that I can now use for the youth group. So what is the monumental financial cost? What additional costs are incurred over and above the DBS check?

I would be very interested to know what those additional costs are. If the TSA database is up to date, a quick search function should do the job - hardly a monumental financial cost in itself. I have visions of TSA paying some latter day Peter Marker to do local background checks on every applicant.

**Paul o** · 05-02-2021, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Bushfella

Over and above there was a monumental financial cost of checking and vetting? How?
...So what is the monumental financial cost? What additional costs are incurred over and above the DBS check?

I would be very interested to know what those additional costs are. If the TSA database is up to date, a quick search function should do the job - hardly a monumental financial cost in itself. I have visions of TSA paying some latter day Peter Marker to do local background checks on every applicant.

Yes, I couldn't work it out. It was in the TSA powerpoint and costs pie chart,and excluded DBS, which as you say is not a cost to TSA. However it was £100,000's to do additional vetting, and management for those that failed DBS or required additional vetting. I read it as not being the insurances, nor resolving historic claims. It sounded extraordinary.

**claire.shadbolt** · 05-02-2021, 12:39 PM

Is there someone employed to facilitate these, particularly the ones that need human input. It won just be the cost of their salary, but phone calls, letters, pension, training etc.

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**daveb123** · 05-02-2021, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by marcush

I can see one of the main reasons for decline being lack of leaders, and I think covid-19 is accelerating this issue, which looking back through the censuses adults weren't necessarily looked at anywhere near as much in terms of trends, and I think with flexible volunteering the decline in the amount of volunteering time can't be seen.

The problem with flexible volunteering is that most roles still need adults to complete various amounts of training within certain timeframes.

Also you need these flexible volunteers to be available when needed which does not always match with they are available so one week you have 5 adults the next 1.

Also you need a regular supply of volunteers as often some of these stay a couple of years or so. Obviously some stay forever but even they leave at some point through one reason or another.

Scouting too changes over time and it depends then how much change an adult can take. I have seen many chages over the time I have been involved and not all of it in my opinion has been for the better.

**daveb123** · 05-02-2021, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by wealdbrook

But the problem is that the numbers on the census or even in Compass do not reflect the real resource available. We have a lot of OHs - parents who we need to have a DBS for camps, etc. Many of their children have left and it is a job to be done to send them all nice emails, then cancel their OH and hope they don't get too upset by the automated email.

One may have a good number of leaders on the books but it does not always reflect how much time they can devote to the group. Also I am sure that even if some leaders say that they won't be coming back they will remain on compass for a while (in the hope they will come back) at least until their DBS expires and the system abruptly dumps them.

The issue will not be OH as they do not feature on the census but I agree that if HQ chech OH numbers on Compass they will be wrong.

Leaders etc I agree I can see many left on until a new DBS as there is no penalty for leaving them there other than messages about training etc.

**Bushfella** · 05-02-2021, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by claire.shadbolt

Is there someone employed to facilitate these, particularly the ones that need human input. It won just be the cost of their salary, but phone calls, letters, pension, training etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

let me think about this...

I apply to join TSA as a leader (don't panic, I won't be back), I fill out the application form, it goes to HQ, where they run a check on their database. How long does that take? Never had the references of any Leader who joined us checked, ever. I have my DBS done, paid for by myself or the Group, District etc.. There is an ASC meeting - where usually more than one person will be interviewed, but even a solo interview would have/ should have no costs - we allowed the use of our hall for meetings free of charge to District, for the benefit of all.

The authorisation gets entered on Compass, at no cost by the DC or the District Secretary. No additional cost to TSA.

Now, a DBS check is a DBS check - what more can be done? The old cross referencing with other organisations was outlawed by the Data Protection Act. If the Police knew anything then it should have shown up in the DBS. I am at a loss as to what these additional costs might be.

In Safeguarding - what happens, is the report of abuse goes up the chain to reach HQ. (Unless someone in the chain intervenes to over-ride the complaint - and we know that happens) HQ, will doubtless record it. They cannot investigate it, they MUST pass it on to the relevant authorities, ie The Police/ Social Services. Are there so many complaints and incidents that the phone bill might be so enormous?

There is no additional monumental cost. Unless there is something going on that you are not being told about.

When a complaint (absolutely false) was made about me, the Police investigated, and that was the end of the story. Oh, I know that they made enquiries outside Scouting because I discovered I was being internet stalked by a retired DS who had absolutely no reason to be looking at my Linkedin profile. - but that was a Police action, not a Scout or Navigators action.

If these "expensive" checks were as thorough as to stop perverts being appointed to roles, then ex-SL Jon Smith of Denby Dale would not have been appointed in the first place. (Now on SOR).

I suspect that TSA accounts are an exercise in Smoke and Mirrors.

**richardnhunt** · 05-02-2021, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Bushfella

I suspect that TSA accounts are an exercise in Smoke and Mirrors.

Or there is a simple overhead to the staff involved in answering queries and supporting the front line has grown. "HQ, will doubtless record it. They cannot investigate it, they MUST pass it on to the relevant authorities, ie The Police/ Social Services. Are there so many complaints and incidents that the phone bill might be so enormous?" I think you know better than that. There is a degree of liaison, record supplying and support for leaders (yes - you didn't get it - but I did )

anyway, back onto the subject.

We are down a couple. Still above our average over the last 50 years, but with a bigger risk level of numbers than ever before.

**Bushfella** · 06-02-2021, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by richardnhunt

Or there is a simple overhead to the staff involved in answering queries and supporting the front line has grown. "HQ, will doubtless record it. They cannot investigate it, they MUST pass it on to the relevant authorities, ie The Police/ Social Services. Are there so many complaints and incidents that the phone bill might be so enormous?" I think you know better than that. There is a degree of liaison, record supplying and support for leaders (yes - you didn't get it - but I did )

When I reported a potential suicide issue, it was passed directly to Social Services, there was next to no TSA support. I even had to push Social Services several times.

I could quote several other cases - at no time was there any TSA support. Not one iota of it. I know of others with the same experience.

**shiftypete** · 06-02-2021, 01:20 PM

I wil be suprised if numbers aren't at least 20% down

**campwarden** · 06-02-2021, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bushfella

let me think about this...

I apply to join TSA as a leader (don't panic, I won't be back), I fill out the application form, it goes to HQ, where they run a check on their database. How long does that take? Never had the references of any Leader who joined us checked, ever. I have my DBS done, paid for by myself or the Group, District etc.. There is an ASC meeting - where usually more than one person will be interviewed, but even a solo interview would have/ should have no costs - we allowed the use of our hall for meetings free of charge to District, for the benefit of all.

The authorisation gets entered on Compass, at no cost by the DC or the District Secretary. No additional cost to TSA.

Now, a DBS check is a DBS check - what more can be done? The old cross referencing with other organisations was outlawed by the Data Protection Act. If the Police knew anything then it should have shown up in the DBS. I am at a loss as to what these additional costs might be.

In Safeguarding - what happens, is the report of abuse goes up the chain to reach HQ. (Unless someone in the chain intervenes to over-ride the complaint - and we know that happens) HQ, will doubtless record it. They cannot investigate it, they MUST pass it on to the relevant authorities, ie The Police/ Social Services. Are there so many complaints and incidents that the phone bill might be so enormous?

There is no additional monumental cost. Unless there is something going on that you are not being told about.

When a complaint (absolutely false) was made about me, the Police investigated, and that was the end of the story. Oh, I know that they made enquiries outside Scouting because I discovered I was being internet stalked by a retired DS who had absolutely no reason to be looking at my Linkedin profile. - but that was a Police action, not a Scout or Navigators action.

If these "expensive" checks were as thorough as to stop perverts being appointed to roles, then ex-SL Jon Smith of Denby Dale would not have been appointed in the first place. (Now on SOR).

I suspect that TSA accounts are an exercise in Smoke and Mirrors.

Dbs (for volunteers) is free. I assume that there is an admin fee paid by hq to use the Atlantic data (i assume they still use it) system but there is no charge from the dbs for the check itself.

The system we have started using for our archery coaches and instructors who work with kids we pay an admin fee if we select "volunteer" but it's only a few quid. I use the same system for work and we pay about £50 for staff.

Its a lot less effort than going through the council or archery gb (we get results in 2 days rather than taking ages for a start!)

**Bushfella** · 06-02-2021, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by campwarden

Dbs (for volunteers) is free. I assume that there is an admin fee paid by hq to use the Atlantic data (i assume they still use it) system but there is no charge from the dbs for the check itself.

The system we have started using for our archery coaches and instructors who work with kids we pay an admin fee if we select "volunteer" but it's only a few quid. I use the same system for work and we pay about £50 for staff.

Its a lot less effort than going through the council or archery gb (we get results in 2 days rather than taking ages for a start!)

Council admin fee is £20, but we managed to get a waiver back in March 2020. So should be free - we shall see. Only takes a week to come through.

**campwarden** · 06-02-2021, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bushfella

Council admin fee is £20, but we managed to get a waiver back in March 2020. So should be free - we shall see. Only takes a week to come through.

Apparently we pay an admin fee of £10.40 per check for volunteers... but the volunteer inputs their data into the system, we do the ID check, and there's no need to wait, for anyone to go to a council office, or to have to email stuff back and forth to people at the council or AGB. We get a notification which either tells us that there's nothing to declare, or there's something on the certificate, and then the volunteer brings in the certificate. Obviously if it came back with anything it would then be a decision to be made.

If I was setting up an independant youth group we'd probably use the same system, as the convenience of being able to do it all instantly from a laptop outweighs the cost.

**Bushfella** · 06-02-2021, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by campwarden

Apparently we pay an admin fee of £10.40 per check for volunteers... but the volunteer inputs their data into the system, we do the ID check, and there's no need to wait, for anyone to go to a council office, or to have to email stuff back and forth to people at the council or AGB. We get a notification which either tells us that there's nothing to declare, or there's something on the certificate, and then the volunteer brings in the certificate. Obviously if it came back with anything it would then be a decision to be made.

If I was setting up an independant youth group we'd probably use the same system, as the convenience of being able to do it all instantly from a laptop outweighs the cost.

We do the ID check, the form goes to the Council Safeguarding team digitally, they call the subject and fill out the details. No real work for us at all :-)