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Thread: 2021 Census predictions

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    We do the ID check, the form goes to the Council Dafeguarding team digitally, they call the subject and fill out the details. No real work for us at all :-)
    Each to their own. Personally i prefer anything that's "online" rather than anything involving phone calls. In "normal" times we would be able to do the full DBS check while sitting down with someone for about 5 minutes and its done. The only improvement would be if the full certificate came straight through to us online, but i believe this is a GDPR issue (the info on the disclosure belongs to the volunteer and its up to them to show it to us)

    Sorting out the club's DBS "mess" is just one of the tasks i've been trying to sort during this lockdown. We seemed to have people who "had dbs checks through work" but no actual record of anyone even seeing the certificate, let alone the date on it to know how old the disclosure was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Each to their own. Personally i prefer anything that's "online" rather than anything involving phone calls.
    Completely agree. To me, if the telephone is needed for a day to day business process in 2021 that process is a failure. Phoning people is for exceptions or a friendly chat, not normal operations, it's a disruptive and awkward method of communication.

    The thing about the organisation not getting the certificate was I think one of those "protection of freedoms" things the Tories brought in rather than GDPR in and of itself, the principle being that if something comes up that you'd rather not disclose to a potential employer you don't have to because you can see it first and decide to withdraw, though for obvious reasons that probably means the potential employer needs to assume the worst and thus won't become an actual employer. The other side of it is that it allows the recipient of the certificate to challenge what is on it if incorrect before anyone gets to see it, which is a good side to the change, because if you've seen something really bad on a certificate it'll still cloud your judgement even if it's completely wrong.

    Perhaps a workaround to make it more efficient would be for people who don't mind the certificate going straight to the employer to be able to consent to that.

    FWIW I find the process Girlguiding seem to use with the ID check first to be a bit more efficient, because you don't have to bounce it back and forth twice as you do with the Scout process.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 07-02-2021 at 09:01 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Completely agree. To me, if the telephone is needed for a day to day business process in 2021 that process is a failure. Phoning people is for exceptions or a friendly chat, not normal operations, it's a disruptive and awkward method of communication.

    The thing about the organisation not getting the certificate was I think one of those "protection of freedoms" things the Tories brought in rather than GDPR in and of itself, the principle being that if something comes up that you'd rather not disclose to a potential employer you don't have to because you can see it first and decide to withdraw, though for obvious reasons that probably means the potential employer needs to assume the worst and thus won't become an actual employer. The other side of it is that it allows the recipient of the certificate to challenge what is on it if incorrect before anyone gets to see it, which is a good side to the change, because if you've seen something really bad on a certificate it'll still cloud your judgement even if it's completely wrong.

    Perhaps a workaround to make it more efficient would be for people who don't mind the certificate going straight to the employer to be able to consent to that.

    FWIW I find the process Girlguiding seem to use with the ID check first to be a bit more efficient, because you don't have to bounce it back and forth twice as you do with the Scout process.
    I think with the system we use, the I'd check can be done before or after the data entry... I just find it easier to do the data entry.

    Totally agree ref phone. Very occasionally it's easier to talk things through on the phone (e.g. running through details of an event) but I'd say 80% of my work comms at present is email and 15% via instant messaging. The remaining 5% is zoom or phone.

    I get irritated these days if a company's customer support requires a call... thankfully most companies I deal with (e.g. my ISP, utility providers, bank, etc) all have Web chat options. Means can have the conversation while getting on with other stuff rather than listening to hold music.

    Each to their own though. My 70+ year old parents are pretty tech savvy but would still default to using the phone... and the landlines phone at that (they're gradually learning that I never answer the landlines- if it wasn't for my other half's insistence there wouldn't be a phone plugged into the line at all.

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    Neil Williams (07-02-2021)

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I think with the system we use, the I'd check can be done before or after the data entry... I just find it easier to do the data entry.

    Totally agree ref phone. Very occasionally it's easier to talk things through on the phone (e.g. running through details of an event) but I'd say 80% of my work comms at present is email and 15% via instant messaging. The remaining 5% is zoom or phone.

    I get irritated these days if a company's customer support requires a call... thankfully most companies I deal with (e.g. my ISP, utility providers, bank, etc) all have Web chat options. Means can have the conversation while getting on with other stuff rather than listening to hold music.

    Each to their own though. My 70+ year old parents are pretty tech savvy but would still default to using the phone... and the landlines phone at that (they're gradually learning that I never answer the landlines- if it wasn't for my other half's insistence there wouldn't be a phone plugged into the line at all.
    The problem with email is that a significant proportion of them are never read or actioned, making it an increasingly ineffective form of communication.

    Iím increasingly having to revert to phone calls so that I know that the information has actually been delivered and I can get an immediate answer to my question as appropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    let me think about this...

    ...There is no additional monumental cost. Unless there is something going on that you are not being told about.
    ...

    I suspect that TSA accounts are an exercise in Smoke and Mirrors.
    Well these expensive checks that were a big segment in TSA's costs pie chart were enough for me to stop and think what they could be. They were so high that there would have to be a big room full of expensive full time sub-contractors to justify such a salary bill... I could not imagine what work would require such a bill.

  7. #36
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    TSA runs its own vetting checks on every potential volunteer, they employ people to do this vetting, it must amount to at least tens of thousands of vetting checks a year given it includes every OH and every other person including those not in roles elligible for DBS checks.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    TSA runs its own vetting checks on every potential volunteer, they employ people to do this vetting, it must amount to at least tens of thousands of vetting checks a year given it includes every OH and every other person including those not in roles elligible for DBS checks.
    Which, as far as I'm.aware, no other organisation working with kids does.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Which, as far as I'm.aware, no other organisation working with kids does.
    Guiding is the only other organisation of similar size (national reach) and age (so have built up historical records of people's prior involvement) that could have a historic blacklist of people that have basically been barred due to adverse reports from a previous involvement and I am fairly sure they also do similar internal vetting.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Which, as far as I'm.aware, no other organisation working with kids does.
    But a process that I am very happy that they do.

    Rich

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    TSA runs its own vetting checks on every potential volunteer, they employ people to do this vetting, it must amount to at least tens of thousands of vetting checks a year given it includes every OH and every other person including those not in roles elligible for DBS checks.
    OK that explains the figure.

  14. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    But a process that I am very happy that they do.

    Rich
    But does it actually achieve anything other than preventing people who have been the victims of false allegations from becoming leaders? Does it actually prevent children from coming to harm? Or does it cost a significant amount of money and achieve very little. If schools dont feel the need to do such checks on teachers, and youth clubs and sports clubs dont feel the need to do them on youth coaches / staff / volunteers, should Scouting be any different?

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    Well I suppose the question is if there is someone whom has crossed the line in safeguarding terms but for whatever reason there is not enough evidence for them to receive a criminal conviction do you want there to be a mechanism so that TSA can at least ensure the person is removed from Scouting and barred from ever holding a position in Scouting again or not?

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
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    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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  17. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Well I suppose the question is if there is someone whom has crossed the line in safeguarding terms but for whatever reason there is not enough evidence for them to receive a criminal conviction do you want there to be a mechanism so that TSA can at least ensure the person is removed from Scouting and barred from ever holding a position in Scouting again or not?
    Lets assume for a second that the answer to your question is "yes". But that shouldn't need huge amounts of people to check and, with a proper database, could be largely automated.

    i.e. only if the name and date of birth triggers a match with someone who is shown on compass as "Barred" would a human need to intervene and check whether it is indeed the same person.

    My understanding was that TSA held a database of information that they had gained from various sources, and checked people against that database.


    Now to tackle the answer to your question. How many people are on TSA's barred list because of falling out with a line manager, or a false allegation, or a minor breach of POR that didnt actually result in anyone coming to any harm. And therefore could be allowed to hold a future scouting role without actually presenting a risk to children? My understanding is that people are rejected and TSA will not tell them why. That's certainly what I was told by someone who was rejected from a role in scouting.
    Last edited by campwarden; 07-02-2021 at 02:39 PM.

  18. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    But does it actually achieve anything other than preventing people who have been the victims of false allegations from becoming leaders? Does it actually prevent children from coming to harm? Or does it cost a significant amount of money and achieve very little. If schools dont feel the need to do such checks on teachers, and youth clubs and sports clubs dont feel the need to do them on youth coaches / staff / volunteers, should Scouting be any different?
    On the Adult front, and not just safeguarding i have heard accounts where people have been bared from (TSA) Scouting as a result of a disagreement between adults, fortunately non of these examples are local to me, but i have heard of cases where a DC has told someone that they dont want "that sort of person" being involved in Scouting any more as "that lifestyle went against their Christian values" there was a bit of an argument and the person left, applied in another district but was barred and was told it was due to an adverse report
    Another case where someone with a disability ( insulin dependant and under control diabetes) was told that they are unsafe, and was reported for miss-haps at events and activities they were not present at.
    If someone higher up takes a dislike to someone at the cutting edge ( ie in a leadership role) , and this results with the victim of what could be called bullying/discrimination etc getting an adverse report made against them theres little that can be done to redress the balance

  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I get irritated these days if a company's customer support requires a call...
    Yep, definitely. Had cause to ask a company to fix something this morning, I FB messaged them and they fixed it. If they hadn't I wouldn't have bothered, and they'd just have lost the business to someone else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Which, as far as I'm.aware, no other organisation working with kids does.
    I would be surprised if other large youth organisations (e.g. Girlguiding, the Boys Brigade, whatever) didn't have a list of people who had been kicked out due to misconduct of whatever kind and weren't welcome to return. Indeed, I suspect an employer of any kind that doesn't have such a list (assuming they have ever sacked someone) is probably in the minority. TSA maybe went a bit further in looking through newspaper articles etc to proactively identify people they wouldn't want, I guess (which was all they really could do pre-CRB), but it's not wildly removed from that idea.

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