Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 137

Thread: 2021 Census predictions

  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    11,007
    Thanks
    3,213
    Thanked 2,601 Times in 1,624 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    If there is a massive cost to vetting people to just help out as occaisional helpers, maybe a change in rules is needed. If they're not camping overnight, and only helping less than once in every 4 weeks then it should be enough for them to be supervised by someone who holds a valid DBS check.
    That's not a change to the rules, that *is* the rules.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Neil Williams For This Useful Post:

    shiftypete (09-02-2021)

  3. #62
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    1,532
    Thanks
    249
    Thanked 699 Times in 421 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    That's not a change to the rules, that *is* the rules.
    Locally we were expected to have parents DBSd even if they were just coming on a hike, day trip, etc with us... or helping out for a day on a local camp but going home overnight. I had (foolishly) assumed therefore that our DC was following the rules.

    We were also told we had to DBS every exec member (even though many of them had virtually no contact with the YP) which wouldnt appear to fall within the rules.

  4. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    11,007
    Thanks
    3,213
    Thanked 2,601 Times in 1,624 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Locally we were expected to have parents DBSd even if they were just coming on a hike, day trip, etc with us... or helping out for a day on a local camp but going home overnight. I had (foolishly) assumed therefore that our DC was following the rules.
    Not only wrong by POR but also a criminal offence.

    We were also told we had to DBS every exec member (even though many of them had virtually no contact with the YP) which wouldnt appear to fall within the rules.
    Part of the reason for DBSing Exec members is to ensure they don't have any convictions that would bar them from being a Trustee. Though I think a Basic check (which you can do on anyone with their consent) would suffice for that.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Neil Williams For This Useful Post:

    shiftypete (09-02-2021)

  6. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,572
    Thanks
    173
    Thanked 841 Times in 481 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Though I think a Basic check (which you can do on anyone with their consent) would suffice for that.
    Correct - I've just had one of these done through work because my role involves handling significant sums of money, and our regulators insist that we're checked for fraud etc convictions. Its not an "enhanced" check so won't look at all the safeguarding stuff that those checks do. The problem is the Scout system doesn't differentiate - you either get an enhanced check or nothing which isn't really how its supposed to work.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

  7. #65
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
    Unless its changed basic checks can only be requested by the subject and not by a third party.

    There are theoretical risks around basic DBS which don't exist with Standard or Enhanced.

  8. #66
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    11,007
    Thanks
    3,213
    Thanked 2,601 Times in 1,624 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Rover View Post
    Unless its changed basic checks can only be requested by the subject and not by a third party.

    There are theoretical risks around basic DBS which don't exist with Standard or Enhanced.
    What are those risks?

  9. #67
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    1,532
    Thanks
    249
    Thanked 699 Times in 421 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Not only wrong by POR but also a criminal offence.



    Part of the reason for DBSing Exec members is to ensure they don't have any convictions that would bar them from being a Trustee. Though I think a Basic check (which you can do on anyone with their consent) would suffice for that.
    So there once again we have a situation where TSA's structure means that a group is following rules imposed from above, and is potentially breaking the law. As trustees the group exec would presumably be the ones held responsible, not TSA. But having been told by those in district (and therefore those who should supposedly know what they're doing) that its what should be done....

    Sorry - i couldnt be a trustee for a charity that sits "within" TSA (or any similarly structured organisation) again. The blinkers have been removed now. For charity trustees to be able to discharge their duty effectively, that charity needs to be free to make decisions (within the framework of charity law of course) and not subject to "line management" from above.

    Of the two charities i am currently a trustee of, one requires a DBS check for my role (as it involves directly volunteering with children on a regular basis) but not specifically because I am a trustee. The other simply asked me to sign a declaration that I was eligible to be a trustee. Some of the volunteers involved have DBS checks because their service delivery role brings them into 1:1 contact with vulnerable people. My role (attending zoom meetings a few times a year) doesnt.

  10. #68
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    13,019
    Thanks
    4,560
    Thanked 1,475 Times in 982 Posts
    Well part of your roles as a Trustee is to know the law and rules that cover your role. No way would anyone ever persuade me to DBS someone who it is not legally allowed for us to DBS check if they don't fufil the legal requirements.

    I have zero qualms about being a trustee in a Scout Association Group (hardly suprising given I have been a trustee of our Group about 15 years now) as I have no intention of being negligent in my duties as a trustee.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to shiftypete For This Useful Post:

    richardnhunt (09-02-2021)

  12. #69
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,202
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 263 Times in 145 Posts
    Ive heards plenty of reports where a Scout group will request that parents fill in a DBS form when their child joins, in some cases all parents are asked to fill one in.

    a quick google bring up this policy:
    http://wargravescouts.org/Wordpress/child-safeguarding/
    Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) Checks, now also known as the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS)

    Although the Group currently operates within the Policy Organisation and Rules of the Scout association with regards to all aspects of its running, including safeguarding and child protection, the Group Executive has agreed the following aim for all sections within the Scout Group in order to promote the safeguarding of all of our children:

    The Group requests that at least 1 adult from each family completes a CRB check
    It is imperative that parents of a child within the 1st Wargrave Scout Group take an active role in the completion of the CRB form.
    http://www.sarrattscoutgroup.org/bea...nt-information
    We ask all parents to fill in an Occasional Helper registration form which includes a CRB. If you already have one I’m afraid we need you to fill in one for the Scout Association too as each context you operate in requires its own check.
    plenty more examples whereat leat one parent - soetimes every parent is asked to complete a DBS ( formerly known as CRB) Check

  13. #70
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    13,019
    Thanks
    4,560
    Thanked 1,475 Times in 982 Posts
    Which was allowed when it was CRBs its only with the change to DBS which included a reduction in the scope of the scheme that such blanket checking was no longer allowed as it was felt there was over checking going on. That Group Executive if its still implementing that policy has knowingly agree a policy that they know is against TSA's own rules (and also happens to be illegal) so how has that got anything to do with being part of TSA preventing trustees from discharging the duties effectively? If anything in this case it more like the TSA's rules are trying to make sure Group trustees do follow the law and don't expose themselve to possibly conducting illegal DBS checks on people when they don't meet the legal requirements to allow them to be DBS checked.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  14. #71
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    What are those risks?
    They are theoretical, for a basic check it is mainly all done online with document verification so in the environment that I work we don't see the ID documents at all.

    In the environment that I work for reasons that I can't go into on a public forum we don't do a separate proof of ID, so there is a theoretical risk of impersonation.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Wild Rover For This Useful Post:

    Neil Williams (10-02-2021)

  16. #72
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,177
    Thanks
    20
    Thanked 242 Times in 175 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Well part of your roles as a Trustee is to know the law and rules that cover your role. No way would anyone ever persuade me to DBS someone who it is not legally allowed for us to DBS check if they don't fufil the legal requirements.

    I have zero qualms about being a trustee in a Scout Association Group (hardly suprising given I have been a trustee of our Group about 15 years now) as I have no intention of being negligent in my duties as a trustee.
    The issue here of course is that as GSL you are both a trustee and a ‘leadership’ side role. Many section leaders may also be so placed. A person whose only role is as a Group Exec member however has no real control over who is and who is not DBS checked. The committee may make a declaration but are not dealing with that on a day to day basis so it relies on the Leaders actually ignoring the DC who makes such a decree especially if put under duress.

  17. #73
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    16,883
    Thanks
    733
    Thanked 3,684 Times in 1,986 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    The issue here of course is that as GSL you are both a trustee and a ‘leadership’ side role. Many section leaders may also be so placed. A person whose only role is as a Group Exec member however has no real control over who is and who is not DBS checked. The committee may make a declaration but are not dealing with that on a day to day basis so it relies on the Leaders actually ignoring the DC who makes such a decree especially if put under duress.

    Trustees may delegate but they remain responsible.

    So, an Exec ( for clarity the Trustees) delegate DBS checks etc, to a non Trustee. The Exec still has a duty to make sure that they are doing the job properly.

    It is an oft quoted "rule" that the Exec looks after the finances and the maintenance of the Group, whilst the uniformed Leaders look after the sections and the programme. There is a clear demarcation in many peoples' minds. However, the Trustees are there for the wellbeing of the whole group, and whilst they may not run the programme, they have a duty to ensure that the programme is being followed and implemented - else they are not doing their job. (Same applies to Districts in my mind).

    An example might be a Group where the Leaders decide to run a single focus programme on football, or ballet dancing. Neither , if they exclude all other areas is what Scouting is defined as in POR, and an Exec funding such a group would not be acting in accordance with POR.

    My belief is that the Exec, if functioning properly, has an overarching interest in the operations of the Group.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Bushfella For This Useful Post:

    dralphs (10-02-2021)

  19. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,202
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 263 Times in 145 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Which was allowed when it was CRBs its only with the change to DBS which included a reduction in the scope of the scheme that such blanket checking was no longer allowed as it was felt there was over checking going on. That Group Executive if its still implementing that policy has knowingly agree a policy that they know is against TSA's own rules (and also happens to be illegal) so how has that got anything to do with being part of TSA preventing trustees from discharging the duties effectively? If anything in this case it more like the TSA's rules are trying to make sure Group trustees do follow the law and don't expose themselve to possibly conducting illegal DBS checks on people when they don't meet the legal requirements to allow them to be DBS checked.
    We do not - unlike the examples above insist on DBS checks for all, and like many assumed that DBS was the new name for CRB.
    As we do not check every parent of a youth member the legal/or within the rules side is not something that's been looked at. I wasn't aware of this practice until i found a report of it elsewhere on the internet where someone was complaining that their son was joining Scouts, and the Scouts were insisting that everyone in the household age over 18 had to be DBS checked as these were the rules for joining Scouts.

    So if a group was CRB'ing every adult over 18 that lived with a youth member, and then was told that CRB's are now known as DBS checks, then the logic follows that every adult that lives with a youth member will be DBS checked, and possibly every adult that lives with a leader/adult member of the group would be also.
    No one will question it if its under the banner of "child protection" or "Safety" and if you have someone that changes role to a DC from a group that checked everyone and anyone over 18 related to someone in the group, it also follows they will more than likely make it a district rule/policy

  20. #75
    GSL & ESL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    13,019
    Thanks
    4,560
    Thanked 1,475 Times in 982 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    We do not - unlike the examples above insist on DBS checks for all, and like many assumed that DBS was the new name for CRB.
    As we do not check every parent of a youth member the legal/or within the rules side is not something that's been looked at. I wasn't aware of this practice until i found a report of it elsewhere on the internet where someone was complaining that their son was joining Scouts, and the Scouts were insisting that everyone in the household age over 18 had to be DBS checked as these were the rules for joining Scouts.

    So if a group was CRB'ing every adult over 18 that lived with a youth member, and then was told that CRB's are now known as DBS checks, then the logic follows that every adult that lives with a youth member will be DBS checked, and possibly every adult that lives with a leader/adult member of the group would be also.
    No one will question it if its under the banner of "child protection" or "Safety" and if you have someone that changes role to a DC from a group that checked everyone and anyone over 18 related to someone in the group, it also follows they will more than likely make it a district rule/policy
    But the point is IMHO being in TSA should make this scenario less likely not more as TSA has got rules around this and all Managers (CCs, DCs and GSLs) should to be aware of the current rules and if they aren't and give wrong information then Trustees still can check the rules and the law directly themselves. Whereas an independent group's trustees would be entirely reliant on their own understanding of how the legislation is written.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL
    2002 - 2018 AESL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

Similar Threads

  1. 2021 Census - older scouts
    By dragonhhjh in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 05-02-2021, 11:34 PM
  2. 2021 Census - Income from parents
    By GSL-Baloo in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-02-2021, 06:08 PM
  3. Happy New Year 2021
    By johnmcmahon in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-01-2021, 11:07 AM
  4. Census: Do Occasional helpers go on the census?
    By garethhowell in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 22-01-2017, 01:55 PM
  5. 2014 Census predictions and results
    By Richard T in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 02-05-2014, 02:56 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •