Steep slopes and rocky terrain

[Glsg]

"Help with defining terrain:
It's the responsibility of the activity leader to ensure they understand the terrain their activities are operating in based on the definitions within POR. If you're unsure about how to determine the terrain of your activities, you can get advice from your Assistant District Commissioner (ADC) or Assistant County Commissioner (ACC) Activities or anyone with a hillwalking permit or hillwalking assessor role."


So, interpretation is down to 'local rules' then? Can't imagine our ADC Beavers will be able to advise when we take Beavers to our local country park. Better not stop off at the adventure playground where handrails are likely to be needed on the slide which also has a slippery slope. And what do they intend 'rocky terrain' to mean?

[Rover]

Ok we can all see the stupidity in this rule, First there is a complete failure of POR, it has/is becoming unworkable. First we talk of being business like, I agree it matters not if you are a volunteer or paid member we should all be business like. Policy should have a named owner and author who are responsible for it and can be contacted for clarification. None of our policies have such a thing. Each should have Risk assessment so anyone can go back and understand why a rule was put in place. There should be an efficient feedback loop. none of which we have.

"has no steep slopes or rocky terrain ,where a slip may result in a fall (routes or areas where the average person would need to regularly use their hands at least for balance if not for actual progress. This does not stop people from using their hands as an aid to confidence.)  "

This one is so flawed. So first what is an average person. there are various views on the web, but lets go for someone 13 stone 2 lb and 5 foot 9. which I came across somewhere? how many leaders fit that model?

As someone else pointed out after the swimming episode we should have process in place that don't allow this to happen, or if it does there is a quick feedback loop to fix it.

I guess we could break the system by asking for multiple permits, and training. that would be interesting, everyone just gets a T1 permit....

As others have said, we wouldn't need this rule if we had trained leaders. Taking YP for hike is basic scouting if we need to protect YP from leaders who cant do that then they should not be leaders.

but this is all becoming very tiresome.....

[Neil Williams]

Supposedly this wasn’t meant to change the meaning, but rather to call out mountainous steep terrain as before. I did point out that it doesn’t do that at all, giving an alternative wording which would work, and they ignored it.

[campwarden]

Supposedly this wasn’t meant to change the meaning, but rather to call out mountainous steep terrain as before. I did point out that it doesn’t do that at all, giving an alternative wording which would work, and they ignored it.

It's very hard to define mountainous terrain in a way that covers all eventualities.

The updated definitions certainly go too far and lead to thr daft examples we've all given but how do you write a definition that prevents a steep path through the rock garden at a national trust House being included, but ensures a cliff path on exmoor that's just below the height limit, is slightly too close to a road, but is somewhat lethal isn't used for an unsupervised beaver hike?

I don't know what the answer is. I imagine if each regular on this forum wrote down a definition we would get 10 different definitions and we would struggle to find a concensus.

[pa_broon74]

I think the issue is down to consultations not being taken seriously. They ask but they don't listen, which is the opposite of what we're supposed to be teaching our young folk.

I also think they've adopted a policy where if they don't know what a rule should look like, then any rule will do.

Us all getting T1 permits - after looking into just getting a dispensation for a single route... Who'd have the time for that? I think as well, there's the questions around justifying the time you give to scouting. It's a finite resource.

[Richard T]

You will need a permit up to Terrain 3, as T2 also has the no steep slopes / rocky terrain clause
https://www.scouts.org.uk/por/9-acti...wo-definition/

will be interesting to see what the info centre comes back with - its also odd that this hasn't been picked up on on 1st FB

[Neil Williams]

I think the issue is down to consultations not being taken seriously. They ask but they don't listen

So it seems. And that wasn't always so - I've had things fixed on a number of occasions in the "old days" of the Technical Advisers.

I also gave them two suggestions for this one - one that made it clear if it was meant to be a "don't go near the edge" thing (in response to the Orme incident) and another that made it clear if it was intended to relate to the sort of thing that's MIA rather than ML territory. I was disappointed they didn't take this on board and left something that will do nothing but create local rules.

You will need a permit up to Terrain 3, as T2 also has the no steep slopes / rocky terrain clause

There isn't a Terrain 3, scrambling etc is "special permission" from the County Mountaineering Adviser. This is in line with it being out of scope for ML because it contains climbing concepts which ML doesn't include (in terms of the NGB awards that's MIA which is very hard to get unless it's your job because of how much is involved in it, and Scouting tends to align with those).

will be interesting to see what the info centre comes back with - its also odd that this hasn't been picked up on on 1st FB

I brought it up on Scouts UK-Leaders when the (sham) consultation launched, I've got a bit bored of posting stuff in 3 places. Probably mentioned it on the Managers Group too but that's a bit quiet of late.

[pa_broon74]

So it seems. And that wasn't always so - I've had things fixed on a number of occasions in the "old days" of the Technical Advisers.

I also gave them two suggestions for this one - one that made it clear if it was meant to be a "don't go near the edge" thing (in response to the Orme incident) and another that made it clear if it was intended to relate to the sort of thing that's MIA rather than ML territory. I was disappointed they didn't take this on board and left something that will do nothing but create local rules.

I think that's probably in keeping with the top-down management model they seem to favour so highly.

None of which is conducive to a voluntary structure. One of the big things I've noticed where we are is, district are really pushing the TSA HQ message in terms of what we do and how we operate at section level. If they want to be able to mandate how I run my section, they need to change the job title, and pay me.

This seems to me to be another sea-change moment in Scouting - where leaders who've been at it for a while, just find they way they're used to doing things has fallen out of fashion.

I am aware that being negative is frowned upon, and it's not strictly on topic for this thread, so won't elaborate any further.

Suffice to say, other than a walk in the local woods (flat, except for the ha-ha's right enough...) Hmmm, maybe not then... Traprain Law, North Berwick Law and the Garleton Hills are out of the question however. These are all places our cubs have been to previously.

Funnily enough - being the absolute danger that I am on account of my disdain of WRA's... While the cubs have been up Garleton hill, I don't take scouts, because they will want to go up the tower which sits on top of said hill, and as far as I'm concerned - due to it's exceedingly steep stone spiral staircase - is a death trap in the dark with a mob of excited kids.

But hey, it's fine now because the path up is steep.

[shiftypete]

has no steep slopes or rocky terrain ,where a slip may result in a fall (routes or areas where the average person would need to regularly use their hands at least for balance if not for actual progress. This does not stop people from using their hands as an aid to confidence.)

I have decided that my interpretion of this will be that the planned route has to contain steep slopes or rocky terrain which requires use of hands in order to progress until I am told otherwise by someone in authority (and I won't be seeking out any such opinion)

Anything other interpretation is just a nonsense

[SteveF]

I'm not sure who actually formulates policy in TSA, is it volunteer commissioner-type people, or is it paid people at HQ?

Having listened to the webinar on First Response I am convinced that it is paid people at HQ.

We don't need to cover hypothermia but we do need to do sepsis. People do not need to practice the recovery position because it's "flexible."

I have been a Leader for 50 years this June and a St John Trainer for about 36 of them. I don't think I have ever been to a Scout event where I felt more frustrated.

[campwarden]

Having listened to the webinar on First Response I am convinced that it is paid people at HQ.

We don't need to cover hypothermia but we do need to do sepsis. People do not need to practice the recovery position because it's "flexible."

I have been a Leader for 50 years this June and a St John Trainer for about 36 of them. I don't think I have ever been to a Scout event where I felt more frustrated.

First aid courses were always a bugbear. I know there are good instructors out there running well balanced courses - but the ones i've been on in scouting spend far too much time on the stuff that's never likely to happen, and barely touch upon the first aid that most scout leaders are actually likely to do. And even though its not officially first aid, there's no training ever provided on how to deal with the minor illnesses that form part of the standard pastoral care on camp (headaches, feeling sick, etc)

Yes CPR is important. Having been taught it multiple times, having taught it to scouts even more times, i suspect its now in the "learning to ride a bike" part of my brain. Theres a lot of emphasis put on the ratio of breaths to compressions, for example, whereas actually its far more important to just get on with it than to faff around remembering whether its 20:2, 30:2, whether its breaths first or compressions first, etc

How often have I used CPR for real? I'm grateful to say 0. How many hour of my life have i spent being taught it - its certainly in double figures.

On the other hand - how much time on a first aid course is spent discussing when a cut should be taken for professional medical treatment? And what if one is 29 minutes walk from a road, and a couple of hours from the group minibus with limited phone signal when it happens (perfectly possible in T0).

How about sunburn. When does that need professional medical care?

And are the thresholds for professional care lower than they would be with our own children at home ( I imagine the answer for most would be yes. I'd clean and steristrip a fairly major cut on myself or my own child which would go to the MIU for a Scout)

Parents leave their children in the care of scout leaders confident that they are "first aid trained", without perhaps knowing that this doesnt actually mean they've learned the details of what to do with the various different minor injuries their child might pick up.

[Bushfella]

Having listened to the webinar on First Response I am convinced that it is paid people at HQ.

We don't need to cover hypothermia but we do need to do sepsis. People do not need to practice the recovery position because it's "flexible."

I have been a Leader for 50 years this June and a St John Trainer for about 36 of them. I don't think I have ever been to a Scout event where I felt more frustrated.

Sorry Steve, run that by me again? The FR Webinar ( which I didn't see for obvious reasons) suggested that you don't need to do hypothermia but you do need to recognise Sepsis?

Well someone, somewhere, is running a very different form of Scouting than I have ever been involved with.

I have seen hypo and hyperthermia - and not always when you might expect them! Without being trained you might imagine the kid with hypothermia was just being a wimpy lazy sod who had given up trying. The hyperthermia came , yes, on a warm day, but we were kayaking and this kid had just layered up because the previous time out he had felt cold. We hadn't realised because they arrive in their kit. He went a whiter shade of pale, started shivering and throwing up. We realised because we had been trained.

Hypothermia is always one to watch for, I've seen kids affected on a cool evening after a warm day on camp. Not to mention on the hills or on the water.

I have never seen a case of Sepsis, and like many medical people, I wouldn't know it until it was too late. (I have seen septic wounds but not Sepsis as such).

- - - Updated - - -

First aid courses were always a bugbear. I know there are good instructors out there running well balanced courses - but the ones i've been on in scouting spend far too much time on the stuff that's never likely to happen, and barely touch upon the first aid that most scout leaders are actually likely to do. And even though its not officially first aid, there's no training ever provided on how to deal with the minor illnesses that form part of the standard pastoral care on camp (headaches, feeling sick, etc)

Yes CPR is important. Having been taught it multiple times, having taught it to scouts even more times, i suspect its now in the "learning to ride a bike" part of my brain. Theres a lot of emphasis put on the ratio of breaths to compressions, for example, whereas actually its far more important to just get on with it than to faff around remembering whether its 20:2, 30:2, whether its breaths first or compressions first, etc

How often have I used CPR for real? I'm grateful to say 0. How many hour of my life have i spent being taught it - its certainly in double figures.

On the other hand - how much time on a first aid course is spent discussing when a cut should be taken for professional medical treatment? And what if one is 29 minutes walk from a road, and a couple of hours from the group minibus with limited phone signal when it happens (perfectly possible in T0).

How about sunburn. When does that need professional medical care?

And are the thresholds for professional care lower than they would be with our own children at home ( I imagine the answer for most would be yes. I'd clean and steristrip a fairly major cut on myself or my own child which would go to the MIU for a Scout)

Parents leave their children in the care of scout leaders confident that they are "first aid trained", without perhaps knowing that this doesnt actually mean they've learned the details of what to do with the various different minor injuries their child might pick up.

Oh yes, that first aid trainer who had an experience and focuses on that - same as they do in Safeguarding, and by doing so they ignore the wider more prevalent issues.

[daveb123]

Having listened to the webinar on First Response I am convinced that it is paid people at HQ.

We don't need to cover hypothermia but we do need to do sepsis. People do not need to practice the recovery position because it's "flexible."

I have been a Leader for 50 years this June and a St John Trainer for about 36 of them. I don't think I have ever been to a Scout event where I felt more frustrated.

You won’t need hypothermia as nobody will be doing activities where they will get it 😀

Those that can do activities where someone may get hypothermia will have to do other courses and higher first aid courses too.

[campwarden]

You won’t need hypothermia as nobody will be doing activities where they will get it 😀

Those that can do activities where someone may get hypothermia will have to do other courses and higher first aid courses too.

I've seen the start of hypothermia on a normal evening at camp. Usually a kid thats got wet during the day, hasn't changed into dry clothes, and is slowly going hypothermic in a corner of the mess tent whilst lethargically picking at their supper.

Learning to recognise and spot the signs early is really important. As a scouter you are more likely to save a life that way than by repeatedly practising cpr.

[Atb]

Have you had a response yet from TSA to your clarification on this T0 steep ground definition? Mine went into the ether and never had a response from Dec. Spoke to our ESL about it and already it has raised concerns about running night hikes when we restart this summer given local steep areas. Fingers crossed for a quick clarification and putting that concern aside.