View Poll Results: Should Athiests Be Allowed to Be Leaders?

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  • Yes

    43 66.15%
  • No

    19 29.23%
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    3 4.62%
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Thread: Should Athiests Be Allowed to Be Leaders?

  1. #31
    BSL (Squirrel) Mrs Chug's Avatar
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    Viking

    Athiests, don't believe in any spiritual element to human existence. Where as agnosics(like myself) believe that their is, just not really sure what.

    I can also understand what Austin has said, about asking the beavers to love god, all of the ones that have been invested while I have been at my group, say it so quietly, the rest is said at the top of their voice and then you get to that bit and they are like mice.I am not saying it's wrong as I have also had this conversation withthe Akela of our group and she has stated to me, that I have belief, that their is something, I'm just not sure what and that is fine with them and they are perfectly happy to invest me into the group.
    Last edited by Mrs Chug; 08-02-2008 at 07:23 PM.

  2. #32
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    I've been watching this thread with interest and unfortunately (or fortunately as some replies seem to suggest) didn't see the previous thread on this subject.

    It appears to me that most of the reasons supplied for Atheists not becoming leaders is simply that they don't "fit the criteria" in relation to one specific area of a policy.

    I believe that if any individual is suitable in all other aspects for becoming a leader then that individual should get all the support available. If he or she is not comfortable with the religion aspect of the movement then others should be on hand to cover this role.

    As has previously been mentioned in other replies I think consideration could be given to reviewing these policies.

    We are supposed to be a Movement, apparently constantly evolving to meet the needs of others - but not Atheists!

    I'd support a review but in the meantime believe such individuals should be welcolmed into the SA.

    I voted yes.

  3. #33
    Escouts Founder Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Before I begin, this is not a personal attack, but a question of our current policy, and what I think is something of an anomaly.

    We all acknowledge that agnostics are allowed to be leaders, but if the policy is



    how do agnostics fit this policy?
    Its not an absolute, note the word encouraged

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Its not an absolute, note the word encouraged
    Well spotted.

    Now comes the debate on individual's perceptions of what "encouraged" means.

    But I'm with you Richard.

  5. #35
    BSL (Squirrel) Mrs Chug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordyC View Post
    I've been watching this thread with interest and unfortunately (or fortunately as some replies seem to suggest) didn't see the previous thread on this subject.

    It appears to me that most of the reasons supplied for Atheists not becoming leaders is simply that they don't "fit the criteria" in relation to one specific area of a policy.

    I believe that if any individual is suitable in all other aspects for becoming a leader then that individual should get all the support available. If he or she is not comfortable with the religion aspect of the movement then others should be on hand to cover this role.

    As has previously been mentioned in other replies I think consideration could be given to reviewing these policies.

    We are supposed to be a Movement, apparently constantly evolving to meet the needs of others - but not Atheists!

    I'd support a review but in the meantime believe such individuals should be welcolmed into the SA.

    I voted yes.

    Thanks Gordy, I was wondering if I should have posted my view, due to the fact of the promise, as I have already stated. The main reason I joined was because if the group did not find another leader, it would have probably closed and it is an area where it is needed, and the young people enjoy going to it. Where my beliefs lie did not come into it after speaking to Chug and Akela and skip of the group, they are all aware of my feelings and none of them have a problem with it, they know I will do the best for my children and for the group.If a young person asks me a question about god, I will try my best to answer them and I will also point them in the direction of looking at the bible and if need be I would go and buy them a copy of the childrens bible, I have no problem with that, I just don't know if that is all their is.

  6. #36
    Escouts Founder Richard's Avatar
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    I do huff and puff on this one.

    The Scout Movement has a set of values and aims. But as I have said before Scouting isnt a religious organisation, simply because, we do not promote 1 religion and frankly in the broader sense, religion, or faith is not the angle we spend time and effort promoting, in a national sense.

    What are we promoting at the moment, Outdoors!

    I would say we are religious at promoting Outdoors, fun and adventure

  7. #37
    BSL (Squirrel) Mrs Chug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I do huff and puff on this one.

    The Scout Movement has a set of values and aims. But as I have said before Scouting isnt a religious organisation, simply because, we do not promote 1 religion and frankly in the broader sense, religion, or faith is not the angle we spend time and effort promoting, in a national sense.

    What are we promoting at the moment, Outdoors!

    I would say we are religious at promoting Outdoors, fun and adventure
    Yep right on, thats what I'm trying to get my beavers into.

  8. #38
    BSL (Squirrel) Mrs Chug's Avatar
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    I'll let you guys ponder this one some more as to weather I made the right dess in the SA eyes. In my own mind I did, the children needed someone to take over the role, i'll let you debate it some more, as I'm off to bed to nurse my cold,my sinus troubles and my high blood sugars and ketones. See you all in the morning with a clearer head(hopefully)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Chug View Post
    I'll let you guys ponder this one some more as to weather I made the right dess in the SA eyes. In my own mind I did, the children needed someone to take over the role, i'll let you debate it some more, as I'm off to bed to nurse my cold,my sinus troubles and my high blood sugars and ketones. See you all in the morning with a clearer head(hopefully)
    In my eyes you did too.

    At the end of the day, you have a group of children who love Beavers that wouldn't otherwise be given the opportunities you provide them with. I believe you (and all Leaders) should be congratulated for it and do not deserve to have people criticise you for doing your best for the kids.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Its not an absolute, note the word encouraged
    I completely agree, so why, following the letter of our policy, does this mean that we can't have atheists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Chug
    Athiests, don't believe in any spiritual element to human existence. Where as agnosics(like myself) believe that their is, just not really sure what.
    I am sure this is an accurate description of your beliefs, but not necessarily the definition of the word agnostic. Agnostic is not to be sure one way or the other of the existence of a god or gods, and is nothing to do with the 'spiritual element to human existence'.

  11. #41
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    because, at the risk of mentioning religion...

    The atheistic absence of religious
    belief is a bar to becoming a Member of the Movement.

    so... no R word belief. no membership. agnosticism is not R word belief, but nor is it an avowed absence.

    If you say there is no God. (absolute) you cannot be a member. (but this is only for adults.)

    i think that is wrong. (on the other hand... there are very few atheists in the world)

  12. #42
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    If that is the case, why do application forms get rejected if you put "none". If you haven't decided on a religion, or are unsure, then the form is rejected. This doesn't take into account agnostics.

  13. #43
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    they are sent back for further investigation i believe.

    then you might be asked to explain your r word beliefs...

    in conversation recently with bishop Edwin Regan of Wrexham, (scouting's Catholic Bishop) (CLANG! oh... was that a name?)

    we discussed a term i had heard used in terms of AA forms: "still searching". he rather liked it... he said it was definitely a description of him (with a big grin...)
    Last edited by big chris; 09-02-2008 at 12:06 AM.

  14. #44
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    Still searching.......I like that!

  15. #45
    Grey but not that old Alfbranch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Chug View Post
    Thanks Gordy, I was wondering if I should have posted my view, due to the fact of the promise, as I have already stated. The main reason I joined was because if the group did not find another leader, it would have probably closed and it is an area where it is needed, and the young people enjoy going to it. Where my beliefs lie did not come into it after speaking to Chug and Akela and skip of the group, they are all aware of my feelings and none of them have a problem with it, they know I will do the best for my children and for the group.If a young person asks me a question about god, I will try my best to answer them and I will also point them in the direction of looking at the bible and if need be I would go and buy them a copy of the childrens bible, I have no problem with that, I just don't know if that is all their is.
    Mrs Chug
    This is very much my aproach as i fit into the same category as you. I believe I am inteligent and considerate enough to achieve this but scouts ask very little about these issues and moan when you bring them up. The duty to God bit makes them go quiet at 10- 14 as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Testarossa View Post
    If that is the case, why do application forms get rejected if you put "none". If you haven't decided on a religion, or are unsure, then the form is rejected. This doesn't take into account agnostics.
    Cant remeber filling one of these in myself but our district was a mess at the time.
    Alf

    Group Scout leader 1st Hensingham Scouts Western Lakes District
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