View Poll Results: Should Athiests Be Allowed to Be Leaders?

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  • Yes

    43 66.15%
  • No

    19 29.23%
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    3 4.62%
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Thread: Should Athiests Be Allowed to Be Leaders?

  1. #91
    aka "Old Battle Axe" tomahawk's Avatar
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    viking, this is where it becomes offensive.

    I do not believe in a "story". The Christian faith is not a mere story. Nor is the Jewish faith or the Islamic faith. Or any of the other faiths out there - they are not mere stories, they are a central and very important part of a persons identity, or a cultures identity, a basis for law, and the basis moral codes and value systems.

    To refer to a faith as a story is deeply offensive to those that hold that faith.

  2. #92
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    I am sorry, I do mean to cause you offense and I don't want this thread to get side tracked. Of course the cultures, identities, laws, moral codes etc are more than mere stories. Faith though is normally based on a story. The definition of a story is 'An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious' (well it is the definition of a story that I use) I do not imply that the story is true or fictitious - I have no way of knowing, I just have beliefs.

  3. #93
    Senior Member wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk View Post
    .and there is no Audit of programmes as far as Im aware.....
    Hmmm - well there is to a certain degree around here (to ensure a balanced programme). This has been a good thing as it has identified training and development needs, where extra support is required and lead to sharing of resoource ideas.

    Also shouldn't that come up when warrants are reviewed?
    Louise

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  4. #94
    Senior Member wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    as he's not been trained, as he's "only" a helper, and has no requirement to do training.
    I'm "only"a helper - but have nearly finished my training! It may not be a requirement but he should be encourages to do training that may benefit him and the Group if he wants to.
    Louise

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  5. #95
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I do find some of the labels getting banded about, and the assumption of what that person believes slightly concerning.
    I told you so. If you fear this, don't restart the thread. Now that you have you need to live with it.

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to discuss this without being perfectly clear about religion, for if you are not clear and have to resort to extremes allusion you can be misunderstood.

    If it offends, don't read it. I think that Scouting, generally is an extremely tolerant movement, but this subject attracts presumptions and statements that exclude people, and which make quite plainly bigotted statements, such as atheists can't do the spiritual bit, rings in my ears like any other unbalanced statement I've ever heard. I didn't make my response as pointed as I intended because I was keeping in mind your comments at the start of the thread.

    I know that I said I would stay out, but that kind of leaves the field free when the nonsense starts getting talked again.

    We should be. must be open to all - no barriers, no religious groups, no political groups, no gender based groups, just plain, open Scouting. And that is a policy that I will defend, till I'm kicked out, and after I'm kicked out.

    Ewan Scott

  6. #96
    Senior Member Biscit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk View Post
    works both ways Richard. All Christians are not fundamentalists.
    I really don't think anyone is being criticised for being Christian, or merely including Christianity in their programme.

    But you are being rather... vehement with your views which is leading to people responding nearly as offensively.

  7. #97
    aka "Old Battle Axe" tomahawk's Avatar
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    biscuit, I am being....vehment because I am a christian, having heard that my faith is a story, codwallop, myth, superstition and fairytale.

    Is it any wonder I question whether or not an atheist can adequately and tolerantly and respectfully cover the faith and belief section that is currently part of the SA balanced programme?

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk View Post
    biscuit, I am being....vehment because I am a christian, having heard that my faith is a story, codwallop, myth, superstition and fairytale.

    Is it any wonder I question whether or not an atheist can adequately and tolerantly and respectfully cover the faith and belief section that is currently part of the SA balanced programme?
    I think you are being slightly over sensitive - after all the life of Jesus Christ is the 'Greatest Story Ever Told'

  9. #99
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk View Post
    biscuit, I am being....vehment because I am a christian, having heard that my faith is a story, codwallop, myth, superstition and fairytale.

    Is it any wonder I question whether or not an atheist can adequately and tolerantly and respectfully cover the faith and belief section that is currently part of the SA balanced programme?
    The bible is a series of stories.

    The beliefs that define a Christian are drawn from the bible and backed up by intellectual reasoning and debate. Faith is the glue that holds the belief in place.

    But it all starts with stories...

    eg.
    let me tell you a story about Baden Powell... he was born in 1857... etc etc (all true... still a story)

    let me tell you a story a bout JC. he was born somewhere around 2000 years ago etc etc. (that's a story. doesn't mean it's untrue)

    Faith and belief in that is a whole new level... justification and salvation, transubstantiation etc etc etc. all defined by intellectual debate and things that a Christian must consider... but one can support a Christian child in their faith without knowing the intricacies of Corinthians, Romans etc.

    Indeed, one can support a Christian child with no faith in a higher power... you can discuss their beliefs. you can challenge them, you can deliver them to church, you can point to wonders in the natural world, you can show an interest.

    Lots of leaders say they are Christian... but they do not turn up in church, they do not address their faith with the rigour that often defines an atheist or even an agnostic.

    so... we have descended into religion again... but as the question is about atheists an their support for a child's beliefs... can we do otherwise...

    and anyway... how does a leader with a faith properly support a child without one? how does a leader who believes in an afterlife properly help a child who does not believe in one and whose mother has just died...? they will be insensitive and impose their beliefs on that child? won't they? if not... surely an atheist can deal as sensitively...
    Last edited by big chris; 12-02-2008 at 09:47 PM.

  10. #100
    Escouts Founder Richard's Avatar
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    Okay folks I've had it.

    Life's too short to go on like this.

    If you really want to continue this discussion, go elsewhere, like uk.rec.scouting.

    Thread Closed

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