View Poll Results: What do you think of the Youth Edition of the Scouting Mag (Dec 2008/Jan 2009)

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    16 25.00%
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Thread: Scouting Magazine (Youth Edition Dec 2008/Jan 2009)

  1. #46
    Member tom_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leaderofthepack View Post
    Bring back 'The Last Laugh'.

    "

    No - it isn't funny how everyone brings it up - it shows what a popular feature it is, and shows how you haven't though about your reader - the leaders. An apology would be better than a flippant comment!
    I don't think there needs to be an apology at all(and i don't think my comment was flippant!) and we did think about it and ultimately we decided not to include it as we didn't feel it necessary to. We knew it was a controversial move but we wanted to do it and put something that reflected the issue as a whole there instead.

    We wanted the issue to be one that brought up the issues that we felt strongly about and make you think about those issues and i think it's brilliant that it's struck a chord with so many people - when was the last Scouting magazine that generated this many comments and such a lively debate.

    In regards to the design we wanted to break the mold of the usual Scouting magazine layout and do something different, make it look more youthful, make it look like a magazine we would read but at the end of the day have content that was relevant to the adults in scouting and we wanted to use the issue to as a voice about what we as young people in scouting would like to see.

    I'm thrilled that there has been so much feedback and made a lot of people think about it and discuss it - at least you read it!

    Tom
    Tom Hylands
    Explorer Scout Leader (Inferno ESU, Burgess Hill)
    County Explorer Scout Leader (West Sussex)

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom_ View Post

    We wanted the issue to be one that brought up the issues that we felt strongly about and make you think about those issues and i think it's brilliant that it's struck a chord with so many people - when was the last Scouting magazine that generated this many comments and such a lively debate.

    ...

    I'm thrilled that there has been so much feedback and made a lot of people think about it and discuss it - at least you read it!
    As a YSP myself, first and foremost I want to congratulate those that made it down to Gilwell earlier in the year to plan the magazine. I haven't read it all yet, mainly because I have to resort to reading it in PDF format from the website, but I have asked Gilwell to send a copy up here.

    Looking at the following excerpts from _tom's latest post, isn't it quite clear that the magazine has served it's purpose? The purpose is not only to inform and educate leaders, but also to instill and stir on debate about how we do things. If one issue of a relatively small magazine - by readership, not by physical dimensions - has stirred up debate from all four corners of Escouts, then surely it has served it's purpose well and truly?

    Congratulations to my fellow YSPs, and I can't wait to get my hands on a copy.

  3. #48
    Member tom_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James.Stuttard View Post
    I found the Mag a little patronising and seemed to be filled with an almost teenage angst tone of:

    "Why not listen to your young people" - As if we don't at the moment??

    There are lots of things we can ask our YP, and they can influence and have their views, but fundermentally they are young people for a reason - they cannot and must not be allowed to make all their own decisisions. Choas would follow and it'd all go wrong. Children are not capable of making some decisions, somethings have to be done by adults.
    I completely disagree with you, young people, no matter what age, are more than capable of making decisions that affect them. I am also a coach for a young rugby team and they know what they like and what they don't and actively give me and the rest of my coaching team feedback about it after the session which then allows us to adjust our sessions to something they not only enjoy but is helping them develop as a player. This is the same principal as listening to your colony, pack, troop or unit - any feedback positive or negative helps you in the future. One thing that shocked me in one of the articles was that the Cubs that were asked said they found it hard to give feedback to leaders.... is this really listening to young people?

    You are right Young People ARE Young People for a reason - we are under 18 (or 25 depending what sections you class as young people) but when it comes to what we like we are the ones that know best and this knowledge should be used to inform decisions.

    If Young People are not allowed to make any decisions then you are blocking our personal development (an aim of TSA) as we cannot learn from any mistakes that we make or know what is a good decision or a bad one, that's hardly preparing us for the big wide world where we will have to make decisions, sometimes very tough ones!

    You say that you found the magazine fairly patronising - it was not intentionally written to sound like that and I'm not convinced it does but you are entitled to your opinion as much as i am and i respect that and in response to your post i find the content of that quite patronising as a young person.

    Thanks for your post and i respect your viewpoint but i just don't agree with it.
    Tom Hylands
    Explorer Scout Leader (Inferno ESU, Burgess Hill)
    County Explorer Scout Leader (West Sussex)

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom_ View Post
    I completely disagree with you, young people, no matter what age, are more than capable of making decisions that affect them.
    Sounds like us oldies should bow out and leave you to it ....
    Fiona
    BSL - Astwood Bank Scout Group

  5. #50
    Member tom_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astwood7 View Post
    Sounds like us oldies should bow out and leave you to it ....
    Obviously we need you to run the evenings etc. and plan. My point was that YP are capable of making decisions and within reason should be allowed to do this in regard to programmes... maybe allocate an evening to be planned by PL's and if they **** it up then they can learn from that and realise that it is not so easy being a leader. In my experience leaders that have done this have earnt a hell of a lot more respect afterwards as the YP then really appreciate what they do.

    My response was making a point to the post that said YP should not be allowed to make decisions which i think is the wrong attitude.
    Tom Hylands
    Explorer Scout Leader (Inferno ESU, Burgess Hill)
    County Explorer Scout Leader (West Sussex)

  6. #51
    Senior Member wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom_ View Post
    but when it comes to what we like we are the ones that know best and this knowledge should be used to inform decisions.
    .
    Most of us will wholeheratedly agree that young people are all entitled to a view, an opinion etc and should be encouraged to be part of the decision making processes at appropriate levels. This applies at home and in the wider world.

    But personally as a parent and a scouting adult you and I will have to disagree on "we are the ones that know best". I do agree that young people think they know what they like, but harsh reality is perception is often different from reality (and yes, I know I sound like my own Mother but she was right!!!!!!!!)

    I do agree views should be listened to, debate and discussion encouraged but at ALL ages there is often one or two people who ultimately decide (both in personal life, hobbies and at work) - hopefully taking various viewpoints, risks, finances, inclusion etc into account. Often this may well be the young people themselves making the decison, and rightly so, but it can never be always.
    Louise

    GSL 1st Fenstanton & Hilton Scout Group www.scubes.co.uk


    TA - Cromwell District (Cambridgeshire)

    Media Manager - Cubjam2016

    We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future.
    -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

  7. #52
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom_ View Post
    maybe allocate an evening to be planned by PL's and if they **** it up then they can learn from that and realise that it is not so easy being a leader.
    ever run a night when your PLs failed? It's rubbish... the patrols have a bad night and the PLs go home miserable, embarassed and downheartened... the leaders feel even worse

    what we do as leaders is set targets for our kids that they can reach... we challenge PLs to learn and grow... to lead small things, occasionally to lead big things but we set them up to succeed... not to fail

    the best leaders are the ones who send the kids home thinking they are fantastic, able to do anything... it's difficult...it takes much more work to let the kids have ownership of something... but it's possible and most of us do it most of the time...

    what would be genuinely useful would be not the diktat "you must listen to kids" but some case studies from leaders about how they involve kids...

    if we do normal brainstorming, most of us don't get past karting, paintball, bungee, bowling and quasar... I have a few techniques for involving kids, giving them real decisions but I'd love to see how other troops run a patrol camp, organise an expedition, plan a night for 40 wild kids... (all the troop ideas seem to be for 18 perfectly behaved angels)... etc etc...

    real ideas from real leaders... that winter article was excellent... it gave us a couple of ideas... i'd like loads of articles like that and going into great depth...

    on another active thread, we have 19th purley who has been doing this for a term (i think)... telling him to "listen to kids" is like tellinh him to "do orienteering". he can't orienteer and he would also like some real life examples of how to involve kids in planning... (i assume)

    do you really believe that most of us are running dull programmes without child input?

  8. #53
    Account Closed Raksha's Avatar
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    I don't know how to do what I want to do, so please bear with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by tom_ View Post
    I'm thrilled that there has been so much feedback and made a lot of people think about it and discuss it - at least you read it! Tom
    I think its a shame that you are the only one on here at the moment defending your teams decisions, but that is a separate issue.
    I think you will find that most of us read this magazine anyway. The fact that we don't comment on it too much means one of two things. Either we like what we get, or it isn't actually too relevant that particular month for what ever reason. Occasionally there are threads on here about particular issues of the magazine.

    "In regards to the design we wanted to break the mold of the usual Scouting magazine layout and do something different, make it look more youthful, make it look like a magazine we would read but at the end of the day have content that was relevant to the adults in scouting "
    Why make it look more youthful when its readership is Adults? All you have done is demonstrate that you need a publication relevant to you in Scouting, I don't think you would get any arguments on here about that. The fonts and colours used were difficult to read for some-one with visual difficulties (I have some difficulty and I found it hard to read the coloured sections).
    I am afraid that some of the content was not relevant to adults in Scouting. Why did we need to see pictures of what you did at Gilwell? It filled pages, it didn't tell me anything I didn't know about what is available at Gilwell.

    "We wanted the issue to be one that brought up the issues that we felt strongly about and make you think about those issues and i think it's brilliant that it's struck a chord with so many people - when was the last Scouting magazine that generated this many comments and such a lively debate."

    This is an issue that brings up issues that YOU feel strongly about. Are they issues that other YP feel strongly about? What in this issue addresses the problems that Beavers have about crime, bullying, nightmares,fighting or teenagers to take the first 5 items on the list on p22.
    Same for the Cub list.
    I am glad you think it is brilliant that it has struck a chord - the sad fact is that although we applaud your efforts, the chord you have struck is the wrong one!

    "I don't think there needs to be an apology at all(and i don't think my comment was flippant!) and we did think about it and ultimately we decided not to include it as we didn't feel it necessary to. We knew it was a controversial move but we wanted to do it and put something that reflected the issue as a whole there instead."
    Yes it did reflect the issue as a whole, Lets aim it at Explorers and Young Leaders, blow the regular readership, This is what we want, this is what you should be doing, and we know best attitude, as sort of summed up by your own last word section - get yourself on a social network system - I don't have time for this and I don't want to be on a social network system.
    Share your dinner - yeah right. I have nothing to eat - want me to share that? The meeting is normally ready to run anyway or the YP help set it up as part of their night.
    Back to the future - I dont know what it is like to be 16 in 2009 - neither do you it is 2008 Seriously, I run Scouts - they are 10 -14, I don't need to know about 16 year olds yet. I do need to know about 10 -14's, just when I thought I had boys sussed I now have to learn about girls - no problems, I try to talk to them.
    Do something different. - I do use POL, I do different things. When I took over I changed somethings and kept others. Change isn't always liked as you are discovering.
    Get spiritual - My YP continually suprise me on this, and I like to think that I offer them the opportunities they need on a regular basis. Do you think we don't do this? Maybe you need to be talking to your own leaders rather than preaching to others.

    What really concerns me is that the YP who have edited this issue appear to be tarring all Leaders with the same brush. There are undoubtedly some leaders out there who will welcome this issue as it has given them some ideas, there will be others who think who the heck do they think they are?
    The vast majority of Leaders are doing the best they can with the resources (human and otherwise) they have at their fingertips.
    As I said in my first post, well done for doing it, but not what I wanted.

  9. #54
    Member tom_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfie View Post
    Most of us will wholeheratedly agree that young people are all entitled to a view, an opinion etc and should be encouraged to be part of the decision making processes at appropriate levels. This applies at home and in the wider world.

    But personally as a parent and a scouting adult you and I will have to disagree on "we are the ones that know best". I do agree that young people think they know what they like, but harsh reality is perception is often different from reality (and yes, I know I sound like my own Mother but she was right!!!!!!!!)

    I do agree views should be listened to, debate and discussion encouraged but at ALL ages there is often one or two people who ultimately decide (both in personal life, hobbies and at work) - hopefully taking various viewpoints, risks, finances, inclusion etc into account. Often this may well be the young people themselves making the decison, and rightly so, but it can never be always.
    I agree with you... perception of things do influence YP's decisions... i think i was responding to that one post and completely missed that in the moment. I don't think i said it should always be YP making decisions as i know thats not viable and i think what you said is spot on and i couldn't have been said much better... Thank You!
    Tom Hylands
    Explorer Scout Leader (Inferno ESU, Burgess Hill)
    County Explorer Scout Leader (West Sussex)

  10. #55
    Member Fearless Guider's Avatar
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    As a relative new comer to scouting (well formally (that's a whole other story) - just recived my scouting CRB through the post and can only assume that my appointment card will follow soon)... I am amused to see that I already know and recognise two out of the four people on the cover of said magazine - infact, i've seen them in previous scouting magazines on the scouts website too.

    But, it strikes me as a little odd that the same faces re-appear. As it happens i know them from the 21st WSJ and have a great deal of time for both of them (as becky will know!) My comment is not aimed at the young people, but in a wider sense - why is it the same people get approached? They are extremely lucky (and i'm sure appricate it) to get these opportunities and I do look forward to reciving my copy of scouting magazine when my appointment goes through - it must be a veritable trove of information to have brought about such debate.

  11. #56
    Account Closed Raksha's Avatar
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    I have no idea, I guess it is because they were selected somewhere along the line to be Young Spokespeople. I have to say that although I have had a couple of Scouts who would have been ideal for this role, they were never invited to attend any training despite me asking for them.

  12. #57
    Senior Member Alec's Avatar
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    Hi everyone, it’s great to read through the feedback; some thought provoking stuff! I’ve put together some response to your discussion points below, and if anyone would like any questions answered specifically, I’ll try and do my best!

    Content of main features:
    Having spoken to many Leaders about the sexual health guidance that was launched earlier in the autumn, it became clear in my mind that some still felt uncomfortable in discussing such issues. I think it was therefore quite ambitious to tap into some of the topics in the main features, and hopefully this will help to offer everyone a view to the situations facing young people today. If many leaders feel that they already know this, then that’s fantastic!!!

    Layout:
    I think everyone has summed up the views already. I think it’s important that this is kept in mind for all future issues. If it’s wrong, we need to know!

    Young People’s magazine:
    Having spent today at Gilwell at a communications advisory meeting, the internal communications to Young People is an issue currently being explored.

    ‘Glorification’:
    This was my primary worry over the last week. I definitely did not want to see a publication that was screaming: ‘I love myself’! I’ve always wanted to remove any sort of generation-gap in the things I do in Scouting, and I’m sorry if any Leaders felt there was a patronising undertone.

    The Big Issue:
    With the review on Scouting fundamentals in its early stages, it would be really interesting to here some views on this. (Probably best saved for another thread, so that this one doesn’t get clogged up). But it would be great to find out, where is the ‘development’ in ‘spiritual development’!

    Hoodies, binge drinkers and future leaders:
    Again, I appreciate there has been some discussion already about this is separate topics, but now we have the feedback both from the Scouts involved and the MP’s, would love to hear some comments on this!

    Fanatical adventures abroad:
    Don’t think we hit many of these. I sort of slid one into the Everyday Adventures section, in the Network contribution, however the focus was on the fundraising. Hopefully the main features are relevant to local Scouting?

    Scout Handbook:
    I believe it is priced at £5. I saw the final design at the beginning of the month, and it looked really good! (afraid I didn’t have the time to read it though).

    Campsite database extra/supplement:
    No involvement from us, but was pleased to see this enclosed! I know it happens every year, but again, it’s the sort of thing that was suggested on here a few months back!

    The Last Laugh:
    Firstly, it’s hard to tell if any of the comments on here are sarcastic, but I think most are genuine. My understanding is that nobody bought the book once it had been commissioned. The main question is cost, and seeing as Scout Shops are now resorting to giving the book away for free, there seems to be little profit to continue the feature? The only other way I can think of funding it, would be to put more adverts in the magazine, but I doubt that would be very popular! As a Young Leader, in past issues of the magazine, I found the main features to offer some inspiration, but the Last Laugh never really had any effect on how I do my local Scouting. I think that this logic matches that in previous threads, and as very few people showed support for the book, the decision to exclude it from the magazine was made.

    I’ll try and keep an eye on this topic, and reply again soon, but please keep the feedback coming!

    Many thanks!
    Alec

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    Quote Originally Posted by tom_ View Post
    I completely disagree with you, young people, no matter what age, are more than capable of making decisions that affect them.
    No they can't... I'll give an example; I Teach in a Primary school and we have children come along for a taster day, one day a child was asked after his visit if he would like to come to our very successfull, well run school. he decided (and his daft mother listened to him) that he'd go to another school he visited, because they had served chips. No, really, that was the reason. He didn't think about the teaching that day or the class or anything a parent might think about. Children can't see the "big picture"

    I'll give another example: when I was 15 I drank an aweful lot of beer and passed out - I was young and incapable of making a decision that affected my well being - I just kept drinking!!

    Quote Originally Posted by tom_ View Post
    This is the same principal as listening to your colony, pack, troop or unit - any feedback positive or negative helps you in the future. One thing that shocked me in one of the articles was that the Cubs that were asked said they found it hard to give feedback to leaders.... is this really listening to young people?
    "Feedback" from young people is instintive and immediate, they feedback on activities with how they act: behaviour is often their most accurate way of telling us what they think of a new game or activity.

    I'm quite enjoying being though of as an "Old Fart" Mind, I've got to wonder, what was the Llangollen feature all about? I didn't get any programme, structure or any suggestions that'd help my own scouting, it seemed to be a rather prolonged advert.

  14. #59
    Account Closed Raksha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec View Post
    Scout Handbook:
    I believe it is priced at £5. I saw the final design at the beginning of the month, and it looked really good! (afraid I didn’t have the time to read it though).


    The Last Laugh:
    Firstly, it’s hard to tell if any of the comments on here are sarcastic, but I think most are genuine. My understanding is that nobody bought the book once it had been commissioned. The main question is cost, and seeing as Scout Shops are now resorting to giving the book away for free, there seems to be little profit to continue the feature? The only other way I can think of funding it, would be to put more adverts in the magazine, but I doubt that would be very popular! As a Young Leader, in past issues of the magazine, I found the main features to offer some inspiration, but the Last Laugh never really had any effect on how I do my local Scouting. I think that this logic matches that in previous threads, and as very few people showed support for the book, the decision to exclude it from the magazine was made.

    I’ll try and keep an eye on this topic, and reply again soon, but please keep the feedback coming!

    Many thanks!
    Alec
    £5 for the handbook, mm, not sure how many will buy this.

    Last Laugh.
    I bought the book. I don't look at it as having an effect on how I do my Scouting. I look on it as - I can just so see that happening! It is a giggle. Something to lighten the mood. Just because people didn't spend £5 on a little book doesn't mean that it isn't a much loved feature of the magazine. I am also suprised that you get a copy as a Young Leader. My YL's dont' get a copy. More likely it is because you are a YS that you get a copy!
    Last edited by MikeJ; 30-11-2008 at 09:32 PM. Reason: fixed quoting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless Guider View Post
    ...... it must be a veritable trove of information to have brought about such debate.
    Sadly, that's one thing it isn't!
    The reason it has brought about such debate is because it is a 'one-off' experiment which, I am sure I can speak for many of us, we really wanted to see succeed. I must say that I have many of the same reservations as Hilary has about it. Perhaps the experiment itself was ill-conceived - a bit like asking form 4 to edit 'The Oldie'!

    What these hard working and ernest young people have produced is a great Teen Mag for Explorers, YL etc etc. As such it might well prove an invaluable template for a future project - it is just that that project is not 'Scouting Magazine'.

    A thought for the editors:
    If I write a notice for six year olds to read, I try to use my very clearest writing so that they have a chance of reading it. It is what they are used to seeing at school and my everyday scrawl would be out of their comfort zone, would be illegible to them and would alienate the very people I wanted to read my notice. By taking your adult audience out of its reading comfort zone into a world of text on exotic backgrounds and bizarrre fonts you are doing what my scrawl would do for six year olds. It may well look trendy to young eyes but to aging myopic varifocal wearers it just says 'Don't bother, it's not worth the headache (literally) that it will cause!'

    If your audience feels comfortable from the start, you gain their trust and can lead them where you will, challenging their ideas and beliefs almost without their realising that it is happening. If, however, they are uncomfortable from the start, they will dig their toes in, refuse to move with you and either 'switch off' or rebel and turn on you.

    Had you kept us in our comfort zone with the layout, you would have got away with the content no problem and probably changed a few views rather than raising a few hackles, along the way!

    Hope this helps!

    (PS Have a look at my Website - it uses much of what you do in the magazine. Adults find it hard going in places and say, "too many blocks of colour and too much text on colour", but those places are not aimed at Adults, they are aimed at my Scouts etc who love it! The 'Adult info pages' although mainly hidden behind a password, are very much more 'staid and traditional').

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